Forgiving the Past of the Other

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sd595
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby sd595 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:22 pm

Nvr2Late wrote:And what about her? HER "first physical love sex" was robbed from her as well


It is a bad situation, but if she freely chose her actions, then she was not robbed.

Actually, after rereading the original message he said she hinted at manual or oral. I guess I read that she was being up front and honest about it the first time I saw the message, but this sounds very vague.

Nvr2Late wrote:and furthermore the man has an admitted problem with porn.


I keep seeing everyone do this one to one comparison here, but one is actual sex with another person and one is not. We all know that porn is bad, but it is not the same thing.

Nvr2Late wrote:I don't see what was taken from him, sorry.


I get why he is upset.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby poetess » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:39 pm

I get why he was upset too (and men resort to anger more readily than women; we are likely to take the same thing to tears) . . . though I too think that if his anger were really at sin, then some of that time outside the car would have been pain that he had hurt his beloved greatly with his own confession. Porn isn't physical sex, exactly . . . but I suspect (this is only a hunch) most women would prefer that their beloved had had oral or manual sex with one or two partners than a five-year affair of looking at naked women and masturbating to them. If nothing else, the in-person sexual sin is more "relational" (it's likely they were in love, not disembodied lust) and the porn is more scary because one doesn't know if it will pop up again in the future.

So yeah, I sort of get the anger, but I think part of it is a distraction from the OP's own sin.

And as to "hints" that she was involved with oral or manual, I suspect she told him something like she's a technical virgin, no penetration. It seems to me that is a wise level of disclosure, less likely to lead to specific mental images.

My own recommendation is pastoral counseling. A secular therapist would be the worst possible idea here, as that person would laugh that any of this is considered sin. A wise pastor or trusted older Christian couple can treat the sin seriously but take both people all the way to God's forgiveness and forgiveness of each other. Or, if one or the other chooses not to forgive, they can help them to walk away from the marriage before it takes place.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby mamame » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Just as it is wise for women to learn how men process things - it is wise for men to learn the same about women.

If he's going to take a wife he needs to know that his actions were probably very hurtful to her.

He himself admitted that it would have been hurtful for her to react that way upon learning of his sin.

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby padsnd » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:16 pm

Poetess,

I suspect you are correct about how most women relate to porn, but I think the opposite is true for men. I think you would find that most men would very much prefer to hear their wife had struggled with porn than to hear that she was intimate with another man. As a man, I would see the "men on the page" as not a relationship with a bonding. It actually would be some of the same statements you made about how women see it, but the results would be reversed. As I said a few weeks ago, I think that men actually view emotional intimacy as more precious than physical and women view them in reverse--contrary to popular belief. Men don't want to be emotional with someone who won't be physical with them because emotional is more sensitive to them.

poetess wrote:And as to "hints" that she was involved with oral or manual, I suspect she told him something like she's a technical virgin, no penetration. It seems to me that is a wise level of disclosure, less likely to lead to specific mental images.


Something bothered me about this and I think you highlighted what it is. The OP leaves out the how he arrived at what she was saying. I suspect you may be correct about how she did it. If she did, I would consider this a bigger issue. Sex is not PIV only. The whole concept of the "technical" virgin that is presented by some is a problematic idea, which IMO indicates some pretty bad teaching and beliefs.

His past porn use is an issue. His reaction in the moment may be understandable, but he needs to decided if he can move past that. I don't think her sin is "worse" or "better" than his. Sin is sin. The question in my mind is whether or not she feels that it somehow is a less of a problem because she didn't do PIV. To me, that belief would be a bigger issue to work through than the actual sin. The sin may or may not have consequences in their marriage. The wrong ideas about sex probably will.


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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby Leah » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:25 pm

But the expression of anger might affect them profoundly. Once kids come along, a parent can't always stalk away. Anger should be expressed in more healthy ways and dealt with appropriately. For better or worse, the message that was sent was, "Don't ever do anything to make me angry. If you do, I'll leave."

I understand that there is woundedness, but now that they are to be married, everything can't be simply addressed as here and now. There has to be some forward thinking.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby poetess » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:15 pm

I'm not saying it's "less" because of emotional attachments, I'm saying it's more understandable. If the vast majority of people who marry each other within the church have sinned sexually with each other (and we know this to be true), then probably just as big a percentage have sinned sexually with other people. If we're going to give a bit of a "pass" to "going too far" before the wedding day, then we have to accept that many, many people went too far before the wedding . . . or before the engagement . . . and then didn't marry.

All else being equal, if I could have a husband who masturbated to an image once or who had oral sex once, for sure I'd take the one-time porn use. But five years complicates it tremendously and would make me fear "Is he really truly repentant over this? Is it in the past forever?" I'd want no part of that in my marriage. If part of those five years was fairly recent (within the last two or three years), personally I would walk away. Too scary, and too big a load of images of other women he'd be bringing into the marriage bed. OK, personally I probably would walk away if it had been within the last ten years; I'd need to know there had been a whole lot of spiritual growth on the other side of that.

And as to the "technical virgin" stuff, that has always bothered me too. But how many people on this site explain such things: "We did a lot before marriage, but no penetration." For better or worse, much of the church has put premarital intercourse as the very big no-no, but if you get to the aisle a virgin you done good. I have never understood it either. If my husband had been involved with sexual sin, I don't think it would have bothered me less if mouths or hands had been involved; all of that is for marriage only. And so is nudity. But as long as we have a Christian culture where dating couples experience zero or next-to-zero real life accountability, being free to be alone together for hours and set their own personal standards and keep them or break them as they see fit, we are going to have sexual sin as the norm.

Ultimately this is a spiritual issue, and this couple needs good spiritual counsel.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby jokerman » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:23 pm

Leah wrote: For better or worse, the message that was sent was, "Don't ever do anything to make me angry. If you do, I'll leave."



No, that would be the incredibly over-the-top perception of a profoundly insecure young lady. Again, he walked around the parking lot; he did not disappear for two weeks and fly to Australia. That people are reading all kinds of terrible things into that is truly bizarre.

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby Leah » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:40 pm

I don't think so. Look at what he says. He uses the words *ruined* and *poisoned*.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby killerkiwi » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Had a friend with some thing similar

Maybe it comes down to you had your future wife on a bit of a pedestal, now you find out shes a real person who has also done some things wrong (everybody has some bagage)

Only question is can you forgive and get over it

btw Friend has been married for 5 years with 2 kids could not be happier

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby sd595 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:12 am

killerkiwi wrote:Maybe it comes down to you had your future wife on a bit of a pedestal, now you find out shes a real person who has also done some things wrong (everybody has some bagage)


Yes, and this shows a place where he needs to grow a bit - she is a person like everyone else and is not perfect. His expectation that she is perfect (and/or will be perfect) is not a healthy one for him or for her. With all that said, what he is upset about is a big deal.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby Prayerful » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:14 am

In this situation, therapy is a must for both.

While waiting to find a counsellor, I would suggest what our therapist does for upsetting issues: write a letter to your FW detailing what you are angry about. Pray over it then and see if you can then forgive her and her ex-BFs. If yes, then burn the letter without ever giving it to her. If not, then you will need to read it to her in the presence of your new counsellor.

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby convicted » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:18 pm

Leah wrote:I don't think so. Look at what he says. He uses the words *ruined* and *poisoned*.

along with the words and actions of:
She was probably worried that I was mad at her but I assured her many times I was very NOT mad at her at all. Just sin. And I explained it to her when I got back in and she understood. I made sure she knew I wasn't abandoning her - just trying to recuperate after picturing the stuff.


It seems we are speaking for the girl, attempting her story.
the young man seems to realize his lack and appears to be sincere in addressing it, does he not?
Hopefully his reaction does give them pause. Hopefully it does get them to peel down what intimacy looks like. all the details(something I personally don't encourage)? not necessarily, but the safety to react, that's a bit of a big deal. Her not running away (where was she to go, eh?) but allowing him to return, to process and encouraging(requiring) him to mature. That sounds like a bit of a decent plan, no?

My question would be what are they doing about their reactions?
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby Leah » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:34 pm

I'm not speaking for the girl. I think this level of anger is inappropriate to the situation.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby SimpleC » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:56 pm

Leah wrote:I'm not speaking for the girl. I think this level of anger is inappropriate to the situation.



I agree 100%...... inappropriate compulsive and childish.

I would be "red flagging" this behavior what will happen when he has a real reason to become angry in the marriage?

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby InGodsGrace » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:06 pm

Why is forgiveness even needed? What each person did in his or her past is that their past. God forgave them and remembers the sin no more. I know mpwhen my husband and I mentioned our pasts... We didn't say forgive me or whatever, it was just a this is what I did/involved in. My husband wasn't a virgin, I wasn't upset about that at all. I wasn't upset that he didn't save himself for me. It was what it was, the past.

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby convicted » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:40 pm

Leah wrote:I'm not speaking for the girl. I think this level of anger is inappropriate to the situation.

Now that's interesting....
you noted the "message sent". that would indicate you're aware of how it was received.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, I believe I'm a bit sensitive to the process or how we process. It's been a personal study lately.
I've noted recently I've been expecting our son to process like I do. He can't. Some day, maybe. but now, no.
Can keepingitpure? IDK.

Love expressed a while back that my response to pressure or tough situations didn't convey safety to her. I didn't...respond the way she was used to. I was too measured, seemingly unaffected by what was going on, withdrawn was a good descriptor. Yet when I did respond or act, when the jumpmaster barked the order, there was a flurry of activity. stuff was handled quickly, decisively, the time for process was over. it scared her.
In counsel it was noted she confused my processing with dealing. they were one in the same. and measured responses wasn't something she was accustomed to. It didn't help that I had a weak clutch trying to control a lot of torque.

I think I judge peoples process and judge it to be unsatisfactory, while not really discerning how they process. Our son needs to talk things out a bit, needs to handle all the parts of what's going on before he can act, he doesn't withdraw, he actively engages in narrative but needs to do so with a person. talk about crazy making. Our daughter on the other hand is nearly the opposite. she issues a 'whatever' with accompanying body language and sets off to her room. she needs to be alone, separation. That doesn't work either. Of course I can relate to that.
I think I hear that, the dissatisfaction with keepingitpures process, going on. idk......

And what level of anger is appropriate concerning sexual immorality? He did say he wasn't angry at her. Rather he seems to be angry that someone he's in love with has that experience in her bag of experiences. What level of anger is appropriate for that? jealous.?. why wouldn't he be jealous?
or is it what he did with that anger? paced about outside with his fists clenched. unable to verbally process the news in a manner that conveys safety and...acceptance, itllbeokness. Then he came back to the car and tried to express itllbeokness.

What level of anger did God display as His nation involved themselves in sexual immorality and the sacrificing of innocence for generations until one day He marched down the Assyrian army to brutally slaughter His chosen people? Gets uncomfortable right about there. Was the level of anger appropriate, His response....of course it was. of course it is. is keepingitpures??? idk.

I hear two issues. how keepingitpure processed the news. and what he's doing about it.
also that our own sin is weighed against that of others(fiancee). that's just reality.

Can he learn to be more measured, can he learn to exhibit a physical reaction (body language) that encourages an environment of safety? I hope so. the insight from many of the women (wives) suggest he needs to. while the men seem to agree. I agree. I think the other issue is what is he going to do with it? sometimes it's nothing. sometimes it's praising for having the courage to share, to be vulnerable, to build intimacy. to thank her for having the courage to not run away at his reaction. And a sincere intention (to include accountability) to learn to process in a manner that encourages him to be a bit more measured. And to remember that the log in our eye is often indeed a log compared to the speck in another's eye. perspective.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby happilymarriedkate » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:44 pm

The anger is concerning...absolutely, but I feel like enough attention is not being paid to the OP's own words concern his self admitted jealousy "issue"- that is even more alarming to me. Jealousy + anger issues = perfect storm for all sorts of marital distress.
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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby SimpleC » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:49 pm

I am a man I do not agree with how he handled himself.

He was honest and thats good.... But if he was my soon to be son in law... I would have all kinds of red flags going off in my head.

She made a mistake and he sounds obsessed and is headed down a road of distrust and jealousy with his mind going off the deep end ..... Can he grow and grow up... yes.. but I do not agree with how he reacted at. all.
Last edited by SimpleC on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby SeekingChange » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:56 pm

I just know the sinner I am, and my heart goes out to the OP because I've BTDT. I also know how good God is and how He refines us, and I hope the OP is not losing focus off of Who his hope is in. The blood of Jesus is powerful stuff.
God can change what people do, behavioral patterns that have been in play for decades. He can change what we do to cope, find comfort, survive conflict, to count. Rahab had done a same old thing for years...then she did something new.

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Re: Forgiving the Past of the Other

Postby padsnd » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:21 pm

IGG,

That aspect has been explored on other threads. Not all agree that anything one does before meeting their spouse is exempt from being something the spouse needs to forgive. At the minimum there is an aspect of the FWs actions having consequences in the present; the same is true of his porn use. Yes. both are forgiven by God and in the past, but we now have a new party at the table who is affected. We can use semantics to explain away whether it is forgiveness or not, but we now have a newly injured party (one who has to grieve the loss of what he viewed as his future), who has to come to terms with that loss and accept his FW in spite of it.


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