Low *free* T and symptoms

Low testosterone issues, impacts on health & marriage, treatments, etc.
reillyj
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:05 pm

Unfulfilled, I went in to have my testosterone levels checked and had standing order for thyroid.. i'm on Armour and a pretty high dose (split into 2 daily doses) 3/5 grains and i've been in the middle of the ranges. I specifically told the nurse DO NOT CHECK for thyroid as i took the dose 4 hours ago and want to come in another time, of course she said it doesn't matter but will comply with my wishes. i just got test results back and did she comply? NO. and now they lowered my dosage.

Doesn't matter because i'm getting it from my Naturopath, LOL. i have yet to do RT3 testing yet, i'll probably get flack for requesting it but i'll do it anyway.

On to my H who i'm writing in about. Gave him his first dose of Levo today. After discussing at length on my NDT groups, i have decided (maybe..) to put him on my back up of Nature Throid (NDT) in divided doses and see how he does on that. In essence, i will be his doctor and that has me very nervous. I know to start at 1 grain and in 7-10 days, up the dose, etc.

His Endo appt for hopefully testosterone shots is next Wed. i'm going to ask him for a RT3 for my H in a few weeks, right now we just need to meet with him and i don't want to rock the boat but when H gets thyroid tests in about 5 weeks i will ask then. I am only praying i'm doing the right thing for him by putting him on my Nature Throid back up (i take Armour and don't have extra) and that i do this right.

EDIT>>>>>>>

OH, also, his test results and this is w/o being on ANY prior thyroid supplementation is:

TSH: 6.41 (reference range: 0.40-4.00)
Free T4: 0.8 (reference range: 0.5-1.6) He didn't order a Free T3 (insert eye roll)

But as you can see, those numbers are wretched, IMO. I was also debating on the Testosterone replacement shots that he most likely will get next week. i thought about holding off treatment while trying to figure out thyroid dose but i feel like the Lord said no... start doing it all because honestly, he needs it all. Prayers for ME that i am able to help him navigate!

Unfulfilled
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Unfulfilled » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 am

I would not necessarily ask for RT3 test at least not yet or you suspect an RT3 problem.

Since you hisband is so low in FT4 and the ONLY way to make RT3 is by conversion. The fact is he has so little T4 to convert, the odds of an RT3 problem is very small. And rhe RT3 test is very expensive and you are right, the Dr will resist it almoat assuredly.

I also would not recommend playing Dr. And giving your own dose to him for two reasons. First you are not a Dr secondly even if it works and you happen to "hit" on the dose, the blood tests will show his numbers to be good and rhen they will want to give ANY replacement as there is not record of the prescription. Of you supress his TSH they doctors will freak! And eventually you will run out of your back up NT and have no prescription to refill.

Many people do well on T4 only IF they do not have a conversion problem. You can only determine that if the dose of T4 increases and he gets to 50% of the free T4 range and rhe FT3 does NOT rise. But that assumes that free T3 is being tested at all. So being extremely demanding about teating for both the free T4 and Free T3 is worthy to stick to guns on. It makes absolutely no sense to not test for the ONLY hormone that ACTUALLY does the work is insane!

My wife is on 3 grains of Armour. I am on a very small dose of synthroid (50 mcg), but it works for me.

reillyj
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:52 am

TY Unfulfilled

i actually did start on him Nature Throid, i suspect he will have conversion problems because of cirrhosis of the liver (non alcoholic, induced by Hep C--has been treated) and i know how to increment the dose.

I will take him to my Naturopath and if she is still unable to get Nature Throid in, i can switch him to Armour as we get it for free from Activas because of low income. She will know how to monitor test results and i am going to be forthright w/his doctor about what he's taking so he can still order the tests. IDK what else to do.... i spoke at length with H last night, trying to explain to him all of this and he said he did want to go the NDT route.

We'll monitor his afternoon temp and symptoms. I do belong to an advanced NDT group and they're helping me but i do take into account what you're saying, but i already started him on it...

Thanks for the advice on RT3, i won't ask for that.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby ledgemoor » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:06 pm

Unfulfilled:

Do you take any Iodine/Iodide supplement?

What do you think about even treating high reverse T3? If it is the body's natural response to stress and forcing you to slow down, do you think slowing down would cause it to eventually resolve itself? Our doctor said that treating it with extra regular T3 would help it resolve, But I wonder. I do know that I felt A LOT better when I was treating it.

And as you said, I noticed that T3 dosages were very short-lived and very critical. T4, not so much.

Thanks dude.
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Unfulfilled
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Unfulfilled » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Treating RT3 is controversial. Getting rid of the cause is always beat and I think out will clear out over time. But that is a lot easier said than done.

Some theory is rhe whole mirror image and plugged receptor theory and there is "no room at the inn" for the biological active free T3 at rhe cellular level. And if you "starve" the body of T4, no conversion = no RT3. The other theory is to go on T3 only, MUCH more controversial. A bit more risky and have to be immediately ready to STOP the T3 immediately. As once the RT3 leaves the "hotel room" and the bloodstream is loaded with FT3, the rt3 can leave all of a sudden, and then immediately get filled with all the FT3 and can QUICKLY go Hyper. So you have to be VERY vigilant on the signs of going hyper. So you can stop taking rhe T3, or dramatically lowering the dose you take. The good need is that T3 only lasts hours so stopping nips going hyper pretty quickly.

If Rt3 dominance is a long term chronic problem, and can't be resolved with reduction of stress etc, then the person is a good candidate for Armour or other natural dessicated thyroid (NDT).

Iodine- the number used in the T4 and T3 is the number of Iodine molecules that are attached to the thyroid hormone. Notice that the biologically active form is T3. And most of it comes (if everything is working properly) by stripping off an iodine molecule off of the T4 to result in T3. So if a person is having very low T4 adding of iodine makes sense. But a person who has plenty of T4, I'm not sure what adding more iodine will do? And since an iodine molecule has to be stripped off to make EITHER T3 OR reverst T3, again, I'm not sure what adding more iodine will do.

Remember these are just my thoughts and logic and I am not a doctor.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:38 pm

OKAY,
So... FIRST endo appt is this coming Wed. i imagine he will rx testosterone (hopefully shots) as H is very low....

I'm really pushy when it comes to treatment for my H but i want to hold back a bit until the first visit, so do i ask for Estradiol test right off the bat or should i wait after he gets his first shot? I know that i need to ask for that test at some point...

Also, if the Endo rx's a shot every 2 weeks, i know that once a week is optimal, i WILL push for that but does he administer the first shot? Is it ok to wait for 2 weeks to get his T up and then go for once weekly?

Does the doc Rx Testosterone and needles and i can then choose the schedule? i'm assuming insurance covers the supplies? Should i ask for a certain needle gauge right off the bat?

He had one blood test that came back very low (low 300's) and his regular doc just ordered another one because he says they like to see at least 2 tests before rx'ing... so that one should come back Monday and i cannot imagine it being normal at all so if the Endo gives him a 2 week shot (that's 200 mg, right?) is he going to want another test before the next shot?

I just want to be completely informed before i go in for the visit because it'll be me administering it and remembering all of these things, that's my job...i have read extensively here and will continue reading but want a succinct list before i go in.

Also if he is given the shot, i assume that it will make him feel better right away? Does the doc have him come in for the 2nd shot after initiating treatment for the first time? I imagine they encourage doing the shots at home so am wondering what happens after the very first shot..do they assume we are going to do the 2nd one at home?

thanks

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Hoosier52 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:59 pm

reillyj wrote: do i ask for Estradiol test right off the bat or should i wait after he gets his first shot?

Get the SENSITIVE estradiol test done. NOT the one they typically use for women. May as well do it up front to see where he's at. [/color]

reillyj wrote: Also, if the Endo rx's a shot every 2 weeks, i know that once a week is optimal, i WILL push for that but does he administer the first shot?

TWICE a week is the best protocol. Split the dose. Less peaks and valleys. I do Wed AM and Sat PM

reillyj wrote: Does the doc Rx Testosterone and needles and i can then choose the schedule? i'm assuming insurance covers the supplies? Should i ask for a certain needle gauge right off the bat?

You don't need an RX for syringes and needles. I get mine at Walgreen's. 100 pack of insulin needles. I use 29 gauge that are 5/16 long for subcutaneous injections. I switch from hip to hip. Hold your thumb hard against the site after injecting to help reduce bumps.

reillyj wrote: He had one blood test that came back very low (low 300's) and his regular doc just ordered another one because he says they like to see at least 2 tests before rx'ing... so that one should come back Monday and i cannot imagine it being normal at all so if the Endo gives him a 2 week shot (that's 200 mg, right?) is he going to want another test before the next shot?

He should go for 2-3 months before being tested again.

reillyj wrote:Also if he is given the shot, i assume that it will make him feel better right away?

He may not notice any improvement for several weeks. Tell the doc you want to do shots at home. Saves you time and money by not gong for an office visit. If he won't let you, find another doc. It's simple. I recommend that you go to the ExcelMale website. Great info by experts and even a few doctors now contributing and answering questions..

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby OldMarriedLady » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:24 pm

DH gets his syringes and needles dirt cheap from Allegro Medical online. 100 B-D (name brand) 1 ml syringes with a removable 27 gauge needle (a year's supply) are $15.25 right now, and 100 B-D secondary 18 gauge needles (for drawing up the testosterone cypionate from the vial) are $7.38.

Since the testosterone cypionate is oil-based and kind of thick, DH puts the 18 gauge needle on the syringe and draws up his dose, then puts the 27 gauge (thinner) needle back on the syringe to inject himself. He also injects twice a week (Tuesdays and Fridays).
"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can."
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Thank you both for responding.

Should i ask him right off the bat to let me to twice weekly injections at home or will he want to give him the initial shot there do you think?

Is the typical 2 week shot 200 mg? So if he wants him on 200 mg every 2 wks, i should tell him i want to inject it myself twice weekly? Just wondering what the typical first visit will be and what i should say, if right off the bat he should give twice weekly or the first time will be a 2 week-er.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby ledgemoor » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:53 pm

so do i ask for Estradiol test right off the bat or should i wait after he gets his first shot? I know that i need to ask for that test at some point...
I would. I don't get the sensitive test, but obviously that would be better.

Also, if the Endo rx's a shot every 2 weeks, i know that once a week is optimal, i WILL push for that but does he administer the first shot? Is it ok to wait for 2 weeks to get his T up and then go for once weekly?
My doctor did not administer the first or any shot. We had to go get the prescription filled first. He just instructed us. It is no big deal. Watch YouTube too. Do it in his butt. I have seen guys inject themselves in the butt, but if DW isn't avaliable, I self-inject in my inner thigh muscle. But the butt is almost painless.

I would start with once or twice weekly now. The doctor doesn't have to know, although I can't imagine why he would object. Maybe he is just uncomfortable deviating from the instructions. If he prescribes every two weeks, give half of the prescribed two-week dose once a week, or quarter twice a week.

Does the doc Rx Testosterone and needles and i can then choose the schedule? i'm assuming insurance covers the supplies? Should i ask for a certain needle gauge right off the bat?
They typically do rx the needles, but it isn't required by law. I get mine from Allegro Medical like OML. I do intermuscular. SubQ did not seem as effective to me. The doctor recommended 20ga for drawing it out of the vial, and switching to a 25ga x 1" needle for injecting. The stuff is very viscous. However, if you are patient, it is possible to draw into a 25ga. I just use a 20ga to get the last little bit out of the bottle. BTW, last time I checked, it was cheaper to buy complete syringes with needles than just needles. The conservationist in me does not like that, but.... You could theoretically recycle it, but the people processing the recyclable waste would not know that it is an unused syringe.

A tip to not waste testosterone: Leave a bubble in the syringe to purge most of the liquid out of the snout of the syringe and the needle. I adjust the bubble size so it takes up most of the conical area between the cylinder and snout. The needle us upside down for this step obviously. When you point it down to inject, the bubble should float to the top below the rubber piston. This is my idea, but I told my doctor and he said it was fine to do that.

Yes, you can choose the schedule.

He had one blood test that came back very low (low 300's) and his regular doc just ordered another one because he says they like to see at least 2 tests before rx'ing...?
My doctor just required one test. I was 270 BTW.

so that one should come back Monday and i cannot imagine it being normal at all so if the Endo gives him a 2 week shot (that's 200 mg, right?) is he going to want another test before the next shot?
There is no fixed dosage for a given time period. I started at .5ml per week which is 100mg of testosterone. I was up to 1ml per week which is 200mg of testosterone. I am currently at .8/160mg per week. No, I doubt he will want another test after the first shot. If he does, look for another doctor, because....

Also if he is given the shot, i assume that it will make him feel better right away?
Nope. Sorry. Testosterone cypionate breaks down into bioavailable testosterone over about a month's time. That way you don't have to shoot every day. BUT, you need several shots to see any difference. It was about a month before I saw ANY improvement. Two months, I was feeling pretty good. To hurry things along, it seems that you could start with a higher dose at first, or use cream at first. However, I have never heard of anyone doing that. It would complicate matters.

Also, keep in mind that too much testosterone is worse than too little. The doctor should start him at a conservative dosage, then increase it if symptoms warrant.

Praying that it goes well and turns things around for you guys.

I got my boron yesterday. I have taken 6 mg for the past two days. There isn't much room for improvement, but I was super-libidinous this morning and had a feels-like-I-am-going-to-pop erection and ejaculated a good load. I just had a shot the previous evening, too soon for it to have much effect. But you'd think it was too soon for the boron to have any effect either. Anyway, it will be fun to see what happens. Will let you know!
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reillyj
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:19 pm

So you said: There is no fixed dosage for a given time period. I started at .5ml per week which is 100mg of testosterone. I was up to 1ml per week which is 200mg of testosterone. I am currently at .8/160mg per week. No, I doubt he will want another test after the first shot. If he does, look for another doctor, because...

So i'm assuming the doc will rx the standard starting dose. You said you started with 100 mg a week, then 200 mg a week, just wondering how his doc is going to figure out the best dose for him esp if he won't test him right away? SORRY for all the questions.



Thank you so much, we need those prayers..seems the enemy loves to attack...



I give my H 9mg of the Boron and it does seem to help but OBVIOUSLY, since he's so low in T AND in thyroid, it's not going to be the best remedy. FWIW i take 2 or 3 a day and it definitely helps libido..google boron and menopausal women (i'm still in perimeno stage) and it has it's benefits for us, also.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby ledgemoor » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:01 pm

No problem on the questions. I enjoy talking about this stuff. You made my day :-).

That's the "problem" with bioidentical HRT -- there is no "standard dosage". You use tests to get you in the ballpark, then adjust accordingly based on, yes, subsequent testing, but more importantly, on how the patient feels. This doesn't fit with the model of mainstream medicine at all. It is especially complicated for women since you are typically dealing with biestrogen, progesterone, and testosterone.

Here are the details of my journey for your entertainment, as best I remember. Your husband's results may vary. Probably will vary.

My testosterone was at 270. Your husband is only a little higher. 100 mg/week is a likely starting point for him too. I did fine on 100 mg week for a couple years. Then I started having symptoms of low testosterone. Mainly erectile difficulties. So the doctor upped it to 200 mg/week with the understanding I would start at 160 and use more only if necessary. That worked fine for a year or more. During all this, I had at most one testosterone test a year. I may have gone a couple years. If everything is working, who cares what the test says, right?

Then the 160mg was not working well for me, so I took the prescribed 200mg/week. That made it worse. I stayed on it for a while since that's what the doctor prescribed, then ordered my own tests. I had discovered progesterone, which helped immensely. My tests came back. My testosterone was high, but by estrogen was also high, for the first time ever. My appt wasn't for another three months, so I doubled up on my DIM and dropped the testosterone slightly to 180mg. Things improved. I asked the doctor to prescribe anastrozole, which controls estrogen. He wanted me to continue on the decreased testosterone, increased DIM, and use the progesterone a little longer then retest before going that route. Things were going so well I dropped back to 160MG. Our life has had an inordinate amount of stress lately, yet my performance in bed is good, so I haven't retested. Some of our problems have been resolved, so that can't hurt.

The boron bottle does say 1 pill/3mg per day. I figure I'll drop back to 3 mg of boron after a few days. If I am low (and I can't imagine I'm not), then that will get me caught up. If I'm not, the stuff doesn't seem too toxic. What do you think? Will definitely read up on it with respect to my very postmenopausal wife! Thanks.
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reillyj
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:31 pm

i think if you feel good on 3 mg boron, then because of the health benefits and given you aren't having any T problems, then stay on that, but YES test it out on your wife if she wants to
It is used to help regulate hormones, especially in women going through menopause. Dr. Newnham found that women who began a boron regimen reported significant increase in sex drive within a very short period of time. Hot flashes were also reduced, notes Regenerative Nutrition.


i am wondering if i should start him on DIM? His appt is on Wed..have no idea what his estradiol is but i'll ask for the sensitive test to get it checked, i've always had him on at least 50 mg Zinc (balanced w/Copper) so he's on that....

Oh, a week ago i had him start again on Progesterone, i think i have him rubbing about 1/8 t on his testicles once a day, have no idea how it's helped as he just started on NDT (thyroid) and will start T shots hopefully this week as he's very low in both so this natural stuff right now isn't having a huge effect on him, i don't think. Hopefully all will really look up in a month.

He has been struggling with profound problems for at least 15 yrs. I am hoping he can get off his pain meds or have them drastically lowered after feeling better on thyroid and testosterone, i feel he has been so robbed of a lot of his life....

Thanks for your story, it helps!

Unfulfilled
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Unfulfilled » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:04 am

I asked my dr if he wanted to try to use me for a clinical trial adding Boron. I am awaiting his response.

I would like to get tested for boron and also the inflammation indicators vit D3 (which I already supplement with 8,000 IU's a day) to get a baseline. I have recent teats for thyroid and testosterone and sex hormones. So I would have a decent baseline to see what Boron does, or doesnt do.

My total T is 461 and has been as low as 400. I would love to see my T levels get above 500. I have mild symptoms but nkthing I csnt really love with. But if I could "naturally" imcrease to 500 or more with boron, rather than T replacement. That would be awesome!

We will see what the Dr. Says. If he is not interested, I will probably take the boron anyhow.

Where do you order or get the Boron from?

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:53 am

Unfulfilled wrote:Where do you order or get the Boron from?

I usually order from Vitacost or iherb or Pure Formulas. H just got his testosterone test back, it's even lower than the one 2-3 weeks ago, about 287 so it's not raising his but i continue to give it anyway for that and other benefits but with any supplement, it may or may not make you feel better.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby ledgemoor » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:38 pm

I got my boron here:
https://www.amazon.com/Swanson-Triple-B ... ords=boron

DW usually places a large order with Swanson every few months and gets free shipping. She just ordered and didn't need anything so I got it thru Amazon.

i am wondering if i should start him on DIM? His appt is on Wed..have no idea what his estradiol is but i'll ask for the sensitive test to get it checked
Men need some estrogen. Since his testosterone is low, his estrogen may be low too. Symptoms of high estrogen in men is a high voice and a puffy face. If he doesn't have that, I would wait until you get the test back, or until he starts on testosterone.

i've always had him on at least 50 mg Zinc (balanced w/Copper) so he's on that....
I wouldn't go over 50mg. The stuff is toxic. I take 35 mg when I can get that size tablet.
https://www.livestrong.com/article/2446 ... e-on-zinc/
Oh, a week ago i had him start again on Progesterone, i think i have him rubbing about 1/8 t on his testicles once a day, have no idea how it's helped as he just started on NDT (thyroid) and will start T shots hopefully this week as he's very low in both so this natural stuff right now isn't having a huge effect on him, i don't think. Hopefully all will really look up in a month.
How many mg of progesterone is that? I take 7 mg, as closely as I can measure it. I tried more (12 - 15 mg) and it didn't work as well. Also, rotate application sites. I do Testicles, penis, left belly, right belly.

As I recall, you asked if he should start thyroid at the same time as testosterone. I haven't read everything here carefully, but I don't think anyone addressed it. DW and I both started our sex hormone(s) and thyroid at the same time. We haven't found there to be much if any interaction between them. Unless unfulfilled advises differently, I would start both ASAP.

He has been struggling with profound problems for at least 15 yrs. I am hoping he can get off his pain meds or have them drastically lowered after feeling better on thyroid and testosterone, i feel he has been so robbed of a lot of his life....
He will feel better, no question about that. Just be patient and don't give up.
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