Low *free* T and symptoms

Low testosterone issues, impacts on health & marriage, treatments, etc.
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reillyj
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:04 pm

OK, just emailed the doc for T tests (5 wks after starting TRT) AND Estradiol, PLEASE pray he cooperates, don't need doctors being difficult for us right now

ALSO... when does he go in for the T test if he takes twice weekly injections? His next injection is tomorrow (Wed) night so should he have one that morning before he has his injection?

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Hoosier52 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:07 pm

Blood should be drawn Wed AM if he injects on Wed PM. You're looking for the low end.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:21 pm

OK that's what i thought. I just emailed his GP as i cannot stand the Endo-he's disinterested, for T results after 1 month and to get an Estradiol and he referred us to the Endo, i sure hope he cooperates as i do not like him but we're limited to our insurance. I envy people that have $$ to do this through knowledgeable clinics...

EDIT: well we aren't as far along as i thought, for some reason i thought we were 5 weeks out into treatment, we started T shots on Wed Oct 18th which is only 3 weeks ago, honestly it feels like a lot longer than that! Which is probably why we haven't noticed huge changes..his libido HAS picked up a bit though :P So i emailed the Endo to order tests, seems i should wait another couple wks at least??

Also he's on 200 mg A MONTH. Two other forums that i'm on, including Exel, i think (?) say the average dose is twice that! IDK how i'm going to talk his doctor into that...

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby ledgemoor » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:29 pm

Ok, so how many cc's of testosterone cypionate are you giving him per week? There is 200 mg per cc, so that would be only .25 cc per week, or .12 cc twice a week. That's only a little over one mark on a typical 3cc syringe. If that's the case, it definitely is not enough. I started at twice that.

I wouldn't get so concerned about all these tests yet. Wait a couple months so it has time to kick in. Any tests while he is ramping up won't mean much.

Don't sweat the doctor not wanting to prescribe or order tests. You don't need them to get a test. Anyone can order them online without a prescription. They email you a paper to print out and carry to any of the many LabCorp offices to get the blood drawn. Lifeextention.com even provides free consultation with a nurse if you order the test from them.
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:47 pm

Ok! :)

I'm such an idiot when it comes to math. He gets 2 boxes a month (insurance fills) and each box says inject 100 mg (0.5 mls) IM weekly (each box-bottle lasts 2 wks) so i'm injecting 0.25 mls twice a week. So obviously he's getting 400 mg's a month, then.

Sorry if i'm asking too many questions or fretting over every detail. I'm the one responsible for making this possible for him and want to be able to do it right and be his advocate. He's taken care of me since i was 19 (he's 14 yrs older than me-no one thought we would last 36 yrs, LOL) and i'm asking all of these questions so i know what i am doing, because honestly i don't have a lot of faith in the doctors right now and i don't know if they'll take tests when i would like them to, but i realize it's very early in the game yet..for some reason i didn't realize it was only 3 wks... i guess i'm not wanting him to be under dosed and i'm esp afraid of the whole Estradiol thing as we never got a baseline. I do have to bring up again that i do see an increase in libido so it's nice to see some kind of improvement. Now if MY O would only cooperate....

SO APPRECIATE all your guys help...

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:19 pm

OK here's what the RN for his Endo emailed after i asked for an Estradiol test (and also a T test after being on it, but like ledgemoor said, it's probably way too early right now)

"The Testosterone level is 257 (below normal range)
Estrogen level doesn't need to be checked as part of evaluation for low Testosterone.
Estrogen level has no impact on Testosterone dose/or decision to treat low Testosterone"

I knew there was a reason that i didn't like that Endo..... well i guess in a couple months we'll have to order it ourselves and pay out of pocket which is a hardship right now. I think the cost is $50 and don't we have to pay for a lab draw?

Of course i prayed about it and asked for favor so...i guess i'll let it rest for right now and keep on. I'm just wondering about DIM, i know it would definitely be weaker than an AI.... but then again if it's low.... i couldn't imagine it being low with all the chemicals he's around.

Also the hypogonadism Yahoo group i'm on recommends Indolplex instead of DIM. The DIM i have is the popular Nature's Way

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/natures ... gJcEfD_BwE

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Hoosier52 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:46 pm

It's frustrating, isn't it. The doc who started me on TRT had my E tested but got the wrong test. When I asked him about the SENSITIVE estradiol he gave me a blank look because he had no idea what I was talking about...even though it was on the QUEST lab sheet.

Estradiol should be checked because T will absolutely raise it. You might try showing him some research papers on it.If he rebuffs you, you know he's too proud to learn. If he reads it and thanks your for, you know he's teachable; and you have a chance to get some good treatment. If he's unteachable, call area pharmacies and ask who prescribes T and AI. They will tell you. Then call and ask questions. FYI - Some people are able to get their insurance to pay for Defy Medical indirectly. Might call Defy and ask if they have any info on how it's done.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:36 am

Well after being shot down by his GP and Endo, i emailed his Urologist pleading his case..like what is the problem just ordering the test? He hasn't gotten back to me yet

On the Yahoo group, i was given a link to the test we could pay out of pocket which we will, we cannot keep going w/o knowing. Here we have insurance and the doctors are digging in their heels which i brought up..we have insurance and it'll pay for it, what's the BIG DEAL? Unless they're offended that i asked for the test meaning i've been researching and probably know at least as much as they do...

Anyway wanted to weigh in, he's been on the TRT shots since Oct 18. This morning he woke me up groping me and i let him, LOL. He hasn't done that IN YEARS. But the sad thing is, he has ED pretty badly and while erect, isn't enough to penetrate unless he takes (generic) Viagra. OF COURSE i help him out in other ways but we both prefer PIV.

I did order Citrulline and Pycnogenol, or rather, pine bark extract (good quality), i read the two are really good for NO. i know he has blood flow issues because of his cirrhosis and he has a lot of problems with his legs, he has to take furosamide to keep the swelling down. Really interested to see how both will benefit him and they're not drugs. I'll peruse forums to see how much to give him and i also thought of Beet (w/spinach) extract. Anything to make him feel better overall..he's such a good husband and has taken care of me very well.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby Hoosier52 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:57 pm

Incredible! What reason did they give for not ordering the test??? Unless they are paying for it, there doesn't seem to be a good reason. I think it's time to search for another Dr. As I said before, ask your Pharmacist and/or at a Compounding Pharmacy. They can give you names of docs who prescribe T and AI. Then start calling them and asking questions. You know enough to decipher which ones know what they are doing and which ones want you to think that they know what they are doing. May God guide you.

PS - If you don't mind, what city do you live in? I can do some searching for you, too, if you like.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:40 pm

Well the pharmacist gal told me, when i took the Testosterone in to make sure i was measuring it right for TWICE a week, she said that's the RX she's getting from the NATUROPATHS in the area (twice weekly instead of once). i looked it up and there's at least one that does TRT (right) for men. PROBLEM IS...they cost $200 up front in addition to the testing he would need (he already has T tests enough to treat, just not Estradiol, etc.) so i think i'm just going to order it online-the Estradiol and wait for a couple more months (he's only been on TRT one month) for his Endo to retest, he has an appt w/the Endo in early January, i think. I suspect he's on the right dosage? (400 mg a month divided into twice weekly doses) and we just don't know his Estradiol... so maybe we can be ok in the meantime just finding out his Estradiol. How to treat it is another thing if he needs an AI. i suppose we'll have to cough up the finances for that naturopath if there's no other choice.

We live hand to mouth, have insurance and it just chaps my hide. I didn't like that Endo from the very beginning. He was just negative about how TRT was going to help my H, like he could feel irritability, he could have a heart attack/stroke, it won't be the "miracle" he's looking for (DUH), i said maybe when he gets stable and feels better he could cut down the opioids, he shook his head even though there's A STUDY SAYING THE OPPOSITE. All you have to do is Google.

Anyway, here's the link to what's in my hometown and they mention a natural supp to deal w/Estradiol, i'll need to research it
http://www.snohomishnaturopathic.com/ho ... r-men.aspx

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby ledgemoor » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:39 pm

SO APPRECIATE all your guys help...
You are most welcome. I am continuing to learn too.

He's taken care of me since i was 19 (he's 14 yrs older than me-no one thought we would last 36 yrs, LOL)
That's neat. I like love stories like that. DW was 16 when we met. We've been married the same number of years, and a lot of people thought we wouldn't last either -- were are different races and grew up on opposite sides of the earth....

Anyway wanted to weigh in, he's been on the TRT shots since Oct 18. This morning he woke me up groping me and i let him, LOL. He hasn't done that IN YEARS. But the sad thing is, he has ED pretty badly and while erect, isn't enough to penetrate unless he takes (generic) Viagra. OF COURSE i help him out in other ways but we both prefer PIV.
Good news indeed! It's still early in the game. His erections will improve.

"The Testosterone level is 257 (below normal range)
Estrogen level doesn't need to be checked as part of evaluation for low Testosterone.
Estrogen level has no impact on Testosterone dose/or decision to treat low Testosterone"
That's technically true. Even if his estrogen was high, he would still want a conservative dose of testosterone. It would be nice to have an estrogen reading as a baseline for future comparison, but my estrogen was not initially tested either. The doctor said I had no symptoms (effeminate, puffy face and boobs and a high voice). He said he did order estrogen tests for new patients with these symptoms, but did not routinely do so. It's more important to test him after he has been on testosterone A WHILE.

But yeah, I can't understand the Dr.'s refusal to give you a scrip for the test. No way can it possibly hurt anything. And it's not like you can't go get one on your own.

In interest of time and simplicity I am going by memory and commenting on some of your other posts here.

Back to our low estrogen discussion. I did some more reading on Zinc and DIM, and your concern that his estrogen may be too low.

Zinc is an AI. Or more accurately, a Zinc deficiency can cause over-aromatization. But if he were low in estrogen, introducing a zinc deficiency is NOT the way to handle it. He should take Zinc regardless. It does a lot of important stuff, and is secreted in semen. I can't give you a specific web site with these findings. I was having insomnia one night so read several sites without keeping record of what I read. Search Bing for HOW DOES ZINC LOWER ESTROGEN. You will get several hits.

DIM is not an AI. It affects the way that estrogen is metabolized. It is good for everyone, regardless of whether their estrogen level is low, high, or normal.

http://blog.healthybynaturehwc.com/a-su ... lance-dim/

As I said before, it is unlikely that he is low. Other than younger men taking a high testosterone dosage and Anastrazole, I have never heard of low estrogen in a man. If that ever were the case, he should either increase his testosterone or take estrogen.

And since he is on a very sane dose of testosterone, I doubt he has elevated estrogen because of the TRT. It sounds like the effects of the testosterone are on schedule. If it gets him to where he has normal erections, problem solved. If his estrogen were a bit high, it will likely come down as he loses weight and becomes more active.

Is he overweight?

If the TRT does not achieve normal erections, then you will need to evaluate his testosterone and estrogen levels to know how to proceed. They purposely start out with a low dose of testosterone. Better too little than too much. Don't despair if his testosterone needs to be increased. I was great for about a year, then needed to go from 100mg to 160mg then finally to 200mg.

The 200mg was worse than 160, so I went back. I asked the doctor for Anastrazole so as to go back to 200mg, but I was getting positive effects from progesterone by then and had doubled my DIM dosage, so he told me to try that first. It turns out he was right. I am still on 160mg, and it has been working well for me, especially since I added Boron :-).

You mentioned Flowmax. Is he still on progesterone? If so, perhaps he doesn't need the Flowmax anymore. But I agree with Unfulfilled when he advised against changing that now. You have a good plan. Stick with it and don't change anything for a while.

L-Citrulline: I've heard that it can have positive effects in women's sexual response. DW is being difficult and isn't taking hers though. If she decides to do it I'll let you know!

It is a commodity, so I just get the cheapest thing I can find in bulk on Amazon. I advise against capsules. You need 6 - 12 grams per day. That's 2 to 4 teaspoons. That's a lot of pills and a lot of expense if you go that route.

L-Citrulline is typically mixed with malic acid. It enhances the effectiveness of the L-Citrulline, especially for preventing muscle soreness. You can get 1:1 and 2:1 mixtures. The 2:1 has 2 parts L-Citrullinne to malate. That's what I was taking. It is still very sour. I am concerned about tooth damage. I drink it thru a straw, and have started making my own 5:1 mixture (1 tsp of 2:1 and 1 tsp of pure L-Citruline). I'll wait to see how it works.

I didn't know about the pine bark either. I generally stay away from these do-everything mixtures. If it turns out to work, I'm sure pine bark extract is available separately.

Take care.
Last edited by ledgemoor on Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:53 pm

ledgemoor wrote: Good news indeed! It's still early in the game. His erections will improve.

YAY! This gives me a lot of hope. For some reason it feels much longer (it's been barely a month) probably because of the twice weekly shots and time flies by these days. Also his libido is definitely higher. For us to ML twice in a week is just about unheard of. So i am so looking forward to that to keep on improving, not to mention general over all health and strength and vitality which is what i really want, also his thyroid is being treated. I really think men should ask their doctor for a thyroid test at least yearly. I just happened to pipe up to his doctor last time we were in and asked for one..

ledgemoor wrote: The doctor said I had no symptoms (effeminate, puffy face and boobs and a high voice).

No, he doesn't have boobs or a high voice and is not feminine in any way, LOL. And thank you, we have an Endo appt early January for re-evaluation of 3 months on it (100 mg a week)

ledgemoor wrote:Back to our low estrogen discussion. I did some more reading on Zinc and DIM, and your concern that his estrogen may be too low.

No, i don't think it's too low, just have no idea where it's at. I would be concerned that it would be a bit high because of the chemicals he's exposed to, so i guess i'll keep him on a conservative DIM dose and i've always given him Optizinc for immune system support. He's not overweight, just has the usual "gut" that middle-older men get but some of that can be attributed to his cirrhosis and of course, his hormonal imbalances, both Testosterone and Thyroid.

ledgemoor wrote: If the TRT does not achieve normal erections, then you will need to evaluate his testosterone and estrogen levels to know how to proceed.

OKay, we'll keep on status quo, then. He's due for a Testosterone test about the beginning of January, i imagine maybe we will spring for an Estradiol test at some point or maybe just wait til the 3 months is up...

ledgemoor wrote:You mentioned Flowmax. Is he still on progesterone? If so, perhaps he doesn't need the Flowmax anymore. But I agree with Unfulfilled when he advised against changing that now. You have a good plan. Stick with it and don't change anything for a while.

I've pulsed the Flomax, just because he doesn't like the stuffiness but i'll certainly up it daily if he needs it, don't want him suffering. i THINK he still uses the Prog. cream maybe 10 mg or less? i can ask, IDK if it's done anything.

ledgemoor wrote:L-Citrulline: I've heard that it can have positive effects in women's sexual response. DW is being difficult and isn't taking hers though. If she decides to do it I'll let you know!

I'm going to try it before the treadmill and to see if it enhances my sexual response. Since entering perimenopause and going on HRT, my libido is sky high (oh please Lord, don't let it ever stop--yes i really pray this) and the feelings are INCREDIBLE, [mod edit] but the O's aren't nearly as intense and sometimes are elusive...they actually feel like mini O's. But the desire and the incredible feelings make up for it. It will be very interesting to see if Citrulline helps in that area.

I did get some yesterday and gave H some this morning along w/pine bark (all of this not just for ED but for circulation/vein health because of his NA cirrhosis) and i gave him 3 grams. The dosage says 6 grams a day.

i also take Boron 9 mg a day combined with B's as it can deplete some B's. i can tell you it DEFINITELY works on me so if your wife decides to try it, let me know.
Here's what i got, i have bought from this supplier before, they're reputable.

https://www.amazon.com/BulkSupplements- ... alate&th=1
https://www.amazon.com/BulkSupplements- ... Bbark&th=1

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Allegro for needles? Help

Postby reillyj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:54 pm

i think someone mentioned Allegro (?) is the best place to buy needles?

i went on the site and got very confused about which to buy.

H uses 18G to draw up the T of course, and then 22G to inject and the syringes are separate.

Could someone please link me to exactly what i should be buying? One said the 22G came with the syringes?? His doesn't come like that. Plus he injects twice a week instead of once.

Thanks!!

EDIT:

i bought these? i hope i didn't mess up
https://www.allegromedical.com/syringes ... -BND309593

https://www.allegromedical.com/syringes ... 14919.html

i think i only needed a 1 ml syringe (that's what i was getting from my pharmacy) and it says 22G x 1.5 and the 18G needles say 18G x 1.

????

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Re: Allegro for needles? Help

Postby Hoosier52 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:21 pm

I do SubQ injections. Many guys use Easy Touch and I think shipping is free. Believe, me these needles are FAR less painful than the 22 ga. 1 inch to 1 1/2 inch. I tried them and they really hurt - usually always drew blood. SubQ works great for me. Last blood work, my Total T was 1100. These needles are virtually painless if you stick yourself quickly.


https://www.easytouchstore.com/easy-tou ... n-syringes

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Re: Allegro for needles? Help

Postby ledgemoor » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:18 pm


This is a 3ml syringe, 1 1/2" long. That's too long. My doctor always said to use 1" and that's what everyone I know uses. But if you have been using 1.5" without hitting bone, it should work. But you can easily make a depth limiter out of a needle protector by cutting the end off so that 1" of needle is exposed. I'll explain it better or PM you a picture later.

I disagree with your needle selection, however. I use 25 ga to inject. MUCH more comfortable for me and easier for DW to give the injection. The doctor claims a 25 ga needle is more effective than larger sizes, although he didn't say why. Less bleeding and less chance of testosterone running back out the hole I guess. Here is what I use:
https://www.allegromedical.com/syringes ... 47233.html

It's hard to find 1 ml syringes for IM injection. Here they are, but they are expensive:
https://www.allegromedical.com/syringes ... 50722.html

I keep some 20ga around for drawing. Plenty large and less damage to the cork than larger gauges. However, I actually draw and inject with the same 25 ga. needle most of the time. You have to be patient -- it takes 2 or 3 minutes to suck in .4 cc. I use the 20 ga just to get the last little bit out of the vial.

If you are going to use a larger needle to draw every time, order the needle/syringe combo in 20 gauge, and the needles in 25ga. There is less needle swapping that way.
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Re: Allegro for needles? Help

Postby reillyj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:50 pm

OK thank you, i'm going to have to call them tomorrow and have them cancel my order,

i just placed a new one. 20 g needles to draw, 25 g ONE inch needles w/syringe to inject.

I always feel so stupid that i can't figure this stuff out, oh well, live and learn i guess. We've been using 1 inch needles, i didn't see the 1.5 inch in the description but all this will save us a lot of $$.

Thank you both for helping me.

Also, just a side note-i got some good quality DIM and will put him on a modest dose since the Endo won't work w/us and i do not think it will lower his Estradiol too low and also we're now starting to see some positive changes over all. Like you said, ledgemoor, he's real early on in the game and it'll take time.... i posted (in case you haven't seen) in the Citrulline thread that i think he's starting to do well on it, plus our last "session"..he didn't last very long if you get my drift which hasn't happened in a long time and actually is a good thing. Don't want to get Off Topic but thought i'd give an update.

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Re: Allegro for needles? Help

Postby ledgemoor » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:11 am

Ah, don't beat yourself up about it. I am an engineer used to dealing with technical matters, and made some stupid expensive mistakes when I was starting testosterone. And I had a good doctor. Live and learn. BTW, if you can't cancel the order, use what your ordered anyway. It's not that big a deal.

For anyone reading, Allegro is having 99 cent shipping today and the next day or two, regardless of the size of the order. I just ordered 100 15gax1" needles. When I ordered last time the needles were more expensive than the needle and syringe, so I have been throwing away a perfectly good syringe just to get a 20ga needle for drawing, but now I can use them. I only use one 20ga every 12 weeks, but hate waste.

I DID see your post in the L-Citrulline thread :D. It made my day. There will be ups and downs, but it will get better and better as time goes on. ENJOY, and PRAISE GOD! ::clap
Everything you ever wanted in life is just outside your comfort zone (Jamie Lee Curtis)

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Used needle disposal

Postby ledgemoor » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:09 am

While we're on this topic...

Another Allegro link of interest:
https://www.allegromedical.com/syringes ... 74327.html

Here it is OK to throw that in the trash. I would tape the lid closed. Our trash company also permits us to put them in a clear plastic bottle for disposal.

I break the metal part of the needle off and put it in the sharps container. It will take forever to fill it up. If you just remove the needle from the syringe and throw it away with the plastic part, it will fill up quickly. I throw the syringe with the needle broken off in the regular trash can.
Everything you ever wanted in life is just outside your comfort zone (Jamie Lee Curtis)

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Re: Allegro for needles? Help

Postby Hoosier52 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:17 am

FWIW - I use 29 ga needles and they draw my T fine. No problems. May take a minute, but while I'm waiting I'm drawing and injecting my HCG.

I haven't tried it, but some draw HCG and T in the same syringe.

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Re: Low *free* T and symptoms

Postby reillyj » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:02 pm

So update:

H has been on TRT since October 18th, i give him twice weekly shots. His testosterone before TRT was below 300.

He's been showing some response and i just asked him if he ever has morning wood and he said no, probably not in YEARS and not now even.

I've heard that is almost essential for a good sex life (or libido)? Is it normal for an older man not to have morning wood but still have a good sex life?

I have been reassured by another member that it's still real early in TRT treatment and to have patience. We are, for sure, but just wanted to know about this aspect, could it be at all possible that he's not getting enough TRT (he's on 100 mg a week) or a problem w/his Estrogen? Doc WON'T test for Estradiol so at some point we're going to have to order tests ourselves (but if it's high, good luck in getting an RX for an AI).

I'm going to try to get his GP to take another testosterone test (morning before his next injection) to at least see where we are. But since i've heard morning wood is such a barometer, this is why i'm wondering. If it's not all that big of a deal, we are just staying the course anyway and looking forward to future gains.

I did add in DIM at a low dose, esp if his E is at all elevated and his Endo is turning a blind eye. Otherwise, everything is status quo.


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