Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

What limits should we set before marriage?
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Re: Waiting for wedding for

Postby Ballad » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:32 pm

Dgenerous wrote:I would NOT want my first kiss to be in front of 300 people

This is the thing. And it's not necessarily about looking silly through inexperience. A couple's first kiss automatically ranks as one of their most intimate kisses ever, and it ought to be (more or less) private.

Is not kissing at the end of the wedding an option, to preserve that?
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby Dgenerous » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:47 pm

I think poetess was saying some people don't kiss at the end. We did something non traditional. We actually met together privately right before the ceremony. We prayed. I could see a kiss fitting there. I was not superstitious about DH seeing me in my dress before I walked down the aisle.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby Ballad » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:08 pm

Aria and I had a private room set aside for 10 minutes or so immediately after the ceremony. There was no sexual component to this--it was mostly for the purpose of breathing! :wink:

But a kiss could happen right afterward, I suppose? Possibly followed by a public one at the reception (during cake-cutting etc.) if it felt appropriate?

Oh, about the reception in our scenario. I think we could have communicated the plan to the masses more clearly; a lot of people were confused, and I'm pretty sure some even got impatient and left before we got there. (The photographer contributed to the problem by trying to get in a number of extra posed shots right then.)
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby C_Brown » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:29 pm

nick421 wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would want to wait until they are married to kiss. I grew up around some folks like this, did not understand it then, and do not understand it now. But to each his or her own...


Ditto, DW and I didn't rush into it, we had been together a couple of years before we had our fist kiss, and we didn't kiss passionately until we were engaged, and then only when we were parting (some of those partings took a while though :mrgreen: )

I had been very much a gentleman and never did anything to stir her up and I never displayed any kind of sexual desire in my behavior or words before the engagement and she found it comforting to know that we did share a physical attraction on top of everything else. By the time we had to kiss in front of everybody, we were well practiced and it made the wedding night a lot less awkward. We just started as if we were parting and kept going.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby poetess » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:07 pm

The kiss as part of the ceremony is traditional, but it is not "required," nor is it required that it be a lengthy, passionate one.

I figured that a kiss isn't a spectator sport, and there's enough sexual tension in a wedding ceremony for anyone who is looking for such things to see "they're hot for each other" even without a lengthy kiss. For sure the family members who are there for the photography session can see that this couple is "ready" to be married!

Having a room alone for a few minutes after the ceremony (or before it, if the couple doesn't mind him seeing the bride's dress head of time) is a good idea. And really, depending on how you do it, it takes a few minutes for the guests to leave the church anyway.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby sunshine_girl » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:35 pm

I have been watching the Duggars for several years. I do think their convictions are not wrong by any means and my fiancé and I did consider waiting until marriage to kiss. What we realized is that wasn't a conviction we had and if we were to stick to "no kissing", we'd only be doing it for bragging rights, not because we felt led to. We had our first kiss around the time we got engaged and I don't regret it at all! It's made this season more special and I think will make for a smooth transition to our wedding night. I can't really imagine going from holding hands to to kissing to sex in one day.... But again, more power to them :)

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Re: Waiting for wedding for

Postby Learning1 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:01 pm

klk570 wrote:
Stumoo wrote:
Saving kissing can be good, but as always don't look to outward appearances but examine your heart; make sure the decision is made to honour God, and not due to pressure from others or a prideful desire to be 'holier-than-thou'. Obviously these arguments don't extend to sexual contact before marriage :wink:




Exactly as said above. I have no problem with people wanting to wait, but to often these days in an effort to remove ourselves from our over-sexed culture, people go to the other extreme. There is an unspoken degree of holy-ness assigned to these things by certain people, it's a little disturbing and quite legalistic. I like the Duggers, but why exactly do they go public with what their boundaries are? If Jessa had decided that they were going to kiss, do you think they would have made a big press release out of that? I'm guessing not. There are things the bible says should be avoided before marriage, kissing is not one of them.

You want to kiss, fine, if you don't that's fine to, but whatever your decision it should be between you and your future spouse. It should not be paraded around like some badge of honor and used to hold over others head, and even though that may not be the Duggers intention that's how it comes across.



+1 to the above. Your boundaries kissing, hand holding, are between you and your future spouse. If someone asks, fine share with them. Share on an anonymous board that purposefully discusses sexual limits to assist others in making the best choices for their situation. However to announce at an engagement party, bridal shower, share publicly, or share when not asked that you are saving the first kiss for the alter is really tacky TMI IMHO.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby girliegirl511 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:50 am

My DH and I first kissed on my birthday. Nothing long, but so sweet and loving...and he proposed the next day :wink:

I knew I didn't want to wait till the altar to kiss, because my Dad was officiating, and that would be too weird. And I'm a very traditional girl, I always wanted the "And you may now kiss your bride"! My stepsons "threatned" to spray silly string on us if we did kiss at the altar. I said they could do whatever they wanted, except spray that! We got bubbles :D

Anyway, I watched the episodes of Josh and Anna Duggar courting. When he proposed he gave her a SIDE hug, and no kiss. I think waiting can be a little more dangerous. I knew my body and there was sexual tension when I was around my fiance. But once he kissed me, some of the tension was released and I could deal with "just a kiss." We knew not to be at each others homes if no one else was there, and be in public places if we went out. However, him being older and me being the type to keep PDA minimal it wasn't very hard. On our honeymoon, he and I both said it was a good thing we kissed before the altar. I think having that tension could cause problems and an "ooops, we messed up moment."

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby InGodsGrace » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:26 am

Oh don't get me started on side hugs. Who does that? It feels like you don't want to hug the person. Looks forced. There are ways to hug w/o breasts touching a guy or whatever ridiculous reason for a side hug.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby SeekingChange » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:53 am

InGodsGrace wrote: There are ways to hug w/o breasts touching a guy or whatever ridiculous reason for a side hug.

Oh really. How? A-frame? That seems a little more awkward to me than a side hug.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby sd595 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:08 am

Wow, a side hug. I've not heard of that.

If it is a single one off hug, I think we are worrying too much.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby C_Brown » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:32 am

InGodsGrace wrote:There are ways to hug w/o breasts touching a guy or whatever ridiculous reason for a side hug.


I never found hugs to be sexually stimulating, just emotionally satisfying. The fact that her breasts are pressed to or touching my chest doesn't provide any sexual stimulation for me, even if I'm hugging DW while we are nude.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby PatsyA1128 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:27 am

Well I am new here but if the couple can and want to wait for the first kiss at the altar, I say go for it! That would be a great act if self-control to honor both themselves and to honor God. However, I am not going to wait that long. I have been a virgin for 49 years my FH is coming down next week to propose to me. Our first kiss will be when we get engaged. It also won't be too passionate or a French kiss. You can still honor yourselves and God by doing all things in modesty and moderation.


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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby PS56 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:18 am

If someone wants to wait for their first kiss -- until the wedding or some other time -- that seems fine to me, as it is a matter of personal choice. I can understand if someone feels that they want to save the first kiss for a special occasion or whatever. But I'm not sure I understand the concept that it "honors God" not to kiss until a certain time. That suggests to me to some extent that there is something wrong with kissing, or that kissing before a certain time is not something that pleases God. Kissing is a sign of affection. I don't see how it honors God to withhold a sign of affection from one you love (although one might desire to do it for another reason, as noted above). Maybe someone could explain it to me. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I really am curious about the thinking behind such a concept.

P.S. I'm not talking about a passionate or French kiss that gets one's juices flowing; I'm talking about a plain ordinary kiss on the lips to show affection.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby poetess » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:37 pm

PS56, I guess part of the answer to your question would depend on how many people you kiss on the lips. In some cultures, lots of people receive such kisses; in some families, parents kiss children that way, but wouldn't kiss anyone who was more distant than parent or child (wouldn't kiss one's sibling or aunt that way, for example); in some families, such a kiss is limited only to husband and wife. Depending on how narrowly you draw the bounds, it can be much more than affection; it can mean real intimacy. And thus it would make sense to wait at least till one is fairly certain this is the person he/she will marry, till official engagement, or even until marriage.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby SquarePants » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:16 pm

PS56 wrote:But I'm not sure I understand the concept that it "honors God" not to kiss until a certain time. That suggests to me to some extent that there is something wrong with kissing, or that kissing before a certain time is not something that pleases God.

I agree with PS56 with this issue. I can't think of a direct or indirect spiritual basis for this. One might have a cultural basis, but I don't see a scriptural basis. As a practical matter, one might argue that abstaining from even kissing might make it more likely that an incompatibility might not be detected until after the wedding has occurred.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby PS56 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:29 pm

poetess wrote:Depending on how narrowly you draw the bounds, it can be much more than affection; it can mean real intimacy. And thus it would make sense to wait at least till one is fairly certain this is the person he/she will marry, till official engagement, or even until marriage.


Ok. I can understand if someone believed that a kiss on the lips involved a degree of real intimacy, such that it was in some way almost tantamount to sex (or constituted the initial stages of sex), and that therefore the kiss should wait until marriage. I don't agree with that notion personally, but it seems to me that if someone believes that, then I could also see that one might conclude that it "honors God" to wait until marriage to kiss. But I don't see the basis -- even if one thinks a kiss involves real intimacy -- for concluding that it "honors God" to wait until they are fairly certain they are going to marry someone, or until the official engagement, but that it doesn't honor God, or honors him less, to kiss prior to those times.

Again, this is not a criticism or judgment of anyone's preference to wait until a certain time to kiss their spouse or future spouse. I just don't see how the various lines that can be drawn would all "honor God" in some fashion, unless the only line is marriage and the notion is that the kiss is part and parcel of something that should be reserved only for one's spouse.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby poetess » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:41 pm

Mind me, I myself am not arguing that a gentle kiss on the lips is "wrong" outside of marriage or innately sexual. (We did it ourselves.) But I know some people who believe that any touch between a couple before marriage is wrong or at least highly dangerous. (Yes, I know some of these people personally, not that "I've heard about these people.") So for sure they'd say kissing was out of bounds. To me the line of passionate kissing after marriage makes sense because it's at least somewhat sexual and because you wouldn't want to do it with anyone other than your spouse. For me personally, a line that make sense is "Is this an act that would be morally acceptable between a brother and sister or two good friends?" If so, then it's OK to do it before marriage (even if you yourself might not do it to a friend, if you see it as morally acceptable, then you aren't seeing it as a marital act). If not, then you'd better use caution, because you aren't married to this person. I'm not saying it's wrong, just saying it's "iffy."

Thus, if in your family people think it's OK to kiss people on the lips rather casually, and you wouldn't be offended to see your wife kiss a good male friend from grade school (whom she'd never ever seen as more than a friend) on the lips, then there is no issue whatsoever. On the other hand, if you'd see it as morally wrong for her to do so, then what makes premarital kissing morally acceptable? If lip-kissing is ONLY a marital thing, then it's hard to justify it before marriage, just as it's hard (impossible) to justify oral sex before marriage. In my mind, lip kissing doesn't rise to that level. It's not wrong between two unmarried people (but I'd still be bothered if I saw my husband kiss a woman at church that way, partly because in his family, as far as I can see, parents and children don't kiss each other that way and so it's a marital thing. In our case, a marital and heading-toward-marriage thing). In my family, parents and children sometimes kiss each other that way, and sometimes somewhat more distant family does, so it isn't so clear a line.

I do think a lot of other acts that are often justified between unmarried couples are very definitely wrong, so I'm not using "situation ethics," just pointing out that kissing really does mean different things to different people. Touch might be more innately sexual to some people than others too, and maybe people who insist on abstaining from all touch simply can't handle it, and shouldn't be chided even for that, no matter how extreme it might seem to the rest of us, so long as they don't insist on that standard for other people too.

ETA: as I reread this after posting, I see I really didn't say much I haven't said already, so I'm probably maxed out on this topic. But I do think it's perfectly OK for someone to say, "This would be wrong for us" even if it's extreme, as long as they don't add, "and it's wrong for everybody else too," unless God said so.
Last edited by poetess on Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby PS56 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:59 pm

poetess wrote:Thus, if in your family people think it's OK to kiss people on the lips rather casually, and you wouldn't be offended to see your wife kiss a good male friend from grade school (whom she'd never ever seen as more than a friend) on the lips, then there is no issue whatsoever. On the other hand, if you'd see it as morally wrong for her to do so, then what makes premarital kissing morally acceptable?


poetess, wouldn't your analysis apply to holding hands or putting an arm around each other? I don't hold hands with my friends (male or female), or my sister, and I think it would be weird to do so. And I certainly would not be comfortable if my wife was walking down the street holding hands with a male friend. OTOH, I don't think it is weird or morally wrong for a man and woman who love each other, and who have not yet made the decision to marry, to hold hands or put an arm around each other.

I don't think it is necessarily an issue of "morally wrong," and I also think that not all non-marital male/female relationships are identical or should be treated the same way in this context. There are some social conventions involved due to the differences in relationships. In particular, a relationship between a man and woman that involves romantic love (or the pursuit of romantic love) is different from the relationship between a man and his sister, or a between a man (or a woman) and a friend of the opposite sex. Thus, I would also not typically take a friend or my sister to a romantic candlelight dinner.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby poetess » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:30 am

PS56, you wouldn't hold hands with your sister, but if you were at a party for your church and you saw two women talking and holding hands, would you think they were lesbians? In this country, men are oftentimes limited to romantic interests in terms of who they can show physical affection, but the reality is it's totally acceptable for a man to hold hands with his young niece or to kiss his baby son on the lips. There is nothing innately wrong in such acts, we just have some cultural restrictions in place. In some cultures, it might be perfectly acceptable for you to kiss your next door neighbors, male and female, on the cheeks, possibly even on the lips, but in this culture we don't.

My point is there is a moral category of acts that are for marriage only, or at least as it comes to between men and women. (I clarify that because an adult caregiver can actually see a child naked, and men may be naked in the presence of men or women nearly naked in the presence of women without sexual connotations, yet generally "seeing others naked" would be a marriage-only act.) It's biblically defensible that you may see your wife naked but you may not (except under specific circumstances, e.g. a medical emergency or a house fire) see the lady next door naked. It is biblically defensible that you may have sex with your wife, but not with the lady next door.

Is there a biblically defensible category of "This act is acceptable if you're dating/engaged but not if you're 'just friends'?" In other words, if it is morally acceptable to hold hands with a date (and it is), it must be morally acceptable for two friends to hold hands; context is the only thing that decides whether it is wise. (For example, I wouldn't say male and female friends who are married to other people should hold hands. But if they're at dinner with several families, and sitting next to each other at the table, and people hold hands to pray, they do not morally need to decline unless their spouses would wish them to.) I'm not going to try to say where "the line" is, but I actually don't see the possibility of a moral category for "this is OK for people who aren't married, as long as they want to get married" if the action in question is specifically a marital action. I'm sure we'd agree that oral sex doesn't fit into that category of something umarried couples can do as long as they love each other, because that is specifically marital touch. Anything that is specifically marital touch is reserved for marriage, not "almost marriage." So it's valid for people who will not hold hands with anyone of the opposite sex (I know some people who hold this standard) to wait for marriage to do so . . . even if it seems odd to the rest of us. But again, they can't hold me to that standard. (And, for the record, one of them tried.)

So no, you might not hold hands with a guy friend, but if you see your wife holds hands with a girl friend and you think nothing of it, then you do not believe handholding is only for marriage. You're just seeing through American-male eyes that for a guy it is a guy/girl thing only. But that isn't a moral category, just a cultural one, and just a male cultural one at that.
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