Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

What limits should we set before marriage?
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PS56
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby PS56 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:12 pm

poetess, I think I generally agree with your most recent comments. I'm not saying that the conventions about holding hands or kissing on the lips are a moral issue. Indeed, my mother-in-law used to like to give me a quick peck on the lips and I did not find it offensive or bothersome, or to raise any moral issue.

I thought you were saying that if someone was bothered by his wife kissing a male neighbor on the lips, then they would necessarily have to object to a man kissing a woman he loves (but to whom he is not married) on the lips. That is what I was disagreeing with, and what gave rise to my handholding analogy. People can have objections to some things and not others based on cultural norms, even if they don't raise moral issues.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby Ballad » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:44 pm

poetess wrote:But I know some people who believe that any touch between a couple before marriage is wrong or at least highly dangerous. ... Touch might be more innately sexual to some people than others too, and maybe people who insist on abstaining from all touch simply can't handle it, and shouldn't be chided even for that, no matter how extreme it might seem to the rest of us, so long as they don't insist on that standard for other people too.

I think refraining from any touch whatsoever and expecting to enter directly into a fully sexual marriage requires too much trust. I would argue that it means a level of trust that is actually inappropriate outside of marriage.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby poetess » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:18 pm

Ballad, I agree with you that refraining from all touch is probably a bad idea, because it's risky. Morally wrong, no, but risky and unnecessary. Wendy Shalit (who wrote a book on modesty and converted to Orthodox Judaism) says that Orthodox Jews believe in no touch before the wedding day, and probably some other cultures do too; it's a legitimate choice, but I don't think it's the ideal. I actually think a bigger risk might be that someone to whom touch is very important is going to have a harder time establishing a real relationship in the first place, and the touch-is-important person might not realize that the other person doesn't find touch crucial. Better to know that before the wedding! (I could not have married someone who didn't consider touch important.)

The reality is that someone with no libido can still "fake it" before marriage, and can even engage in sinful sex before marriage . . . there is no foolproof way to weed out someone who is going to deceive you, or is going to be self-deceived. I think the key is marring someone who understands how important sex is to marriage, understands that it is a biblical essential, and takes God seriously and takes marriage seriously. But people can lie about those things, too. So, if someone feels convicted that touch before marriage is wrong, I wouldn't try to talk them out of that conviction. But yes, I would tell them that they need to make all the more careful that they discuss the importance of sex, and touch, within marriage, and that they're on the same page. And the couple I know who hold this conviction for their children, I'm looking for an opportunity to tell the wife I don't think this is the wisest idea. If someone wants it for himself, fine, but I am not sure you can "impose" this one on your children, at least once they are of an age to marry (and since they believe in courtship, their children will not be going on "dates" until they are ready to marry). If a man cannot be trusted to lead the relationship once the couple is engaged, then he's the wrong man to be a husband to your daughter, and he will probably go against your wishes, anyway. So why not establish some guidelines and leave the details up to him? There is certainly nothing in Scripture that says all touch between a man and a woman who aren't married is wrong, so it isn't something you can hold as an absolute for someone else. As a conviction for yourself, sure.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby girliegirl511 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:18 pm

poetess wrote:If someone wants it for himself, fine, but I am not sure you can "impose" this one on your children, at least once they are of an age to marry (and since they believe in courtship, their children will not be going on "dates" until they are ready to marry). If a man cannot be trusted to lead the relationship once the couple is engaged, then he's the wrong man to be a husband to your daughter, and he will probably go against your wishes, anyway.


EXACTLY!! Especially if the couple is older, I'm 21 but people think I'm 30(somedays I feel that way). My parents suggested what physical contact they would like me to have. But in the end it was our decision. My then FH and I talked, set guidelines, and had a couple that kept us accountable. My DH is 45 and so he KNEW his boundaries and what was too much for him.

You do need to be able to "touch" your fiance. If your an emotional girl, you need that security that comes from a hug, your FH slipping his hand into yours when walking around Wal-Mart, a peck on the lips when he drops you off after a date. And our wedding night was relaxed and not as feverish as some couples that I've heard of. It was an AWESOME night, but it was that way because we set boundaries and kept them. Yeah we had 2 little kissing sessions, in daylight, in a semi-private park...but we left the rest for our wedding night. Holding hands, kissing, hugs make you feel at home and know your FH/FW on a completely new level. I think I would've been a wreck of nerves if we hadn't had some physical contact before the wedding night. It didn't feel awkward or like I was exposed, especially since he had experience(widower) and I didn't.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby gulfcoastgal » Thu May 01, 2014 9:22 am

I have no problems with what two people decide as long as their boundaries are biblical. The only caution is against making it an idol or "extra" biblical. Our sitter got married last fall and the preacher went on and on about it (really a mini-sermon) stopping just shy of how much more their life together will be blessed because of it. Poor thing was red in the face :oops: by the time by the time they were allowed to share this blessed moment with 200 of their closest friends. :roll: I don't know if it was or wasn't their first kiss (based on what I witnessed at my house), but the whole thing was very awkward for everyone.
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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby girliegirl511 » Mon May 05, 2014 9:23 pm

In the homeschool world that is how families approach physical contact. They lift up their friends or family because they have not hugged or kissed. I've been to some of those weddings and it does get very awkward. It's very sad, because it also distorts their view on the MB :(

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby Rescued » Mon May 05, 2014 10:40 pm

Our son and his girlfriend are waiting to be married for their first kiss. They are by no means "geeks" or whatever you want to call them. I have no idea where they got the idea to do this, but if that is what they want, we support them. My wife and I kissed after a few months of dating and we kiss passionately in front of our children, we always have so it's not like we've taught them to be "modest" or whatever you want to call it.

I think it's great if they still have self control like that after years of dating. We are very proud of them.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby LoveIsSweet » Tue May 06, 2014 6:42 am

For what it's worth, I know several couples who didn't lip kiss before the marriage altar (some because of parental edicts, some because of what they now consider misinformed ideas of "godly purity"). Even without lip kissing, they enjoyed a lot of other forms of physical touch and expression while engaged or nearly engaged. These couples seemed to adjust to the intimacies of the marriage bed/honeymoon easily.

I know other couples who did not kiss (similar reasons as above or believed kissing before marriage was sin), and who also did not touch or did not allow much touching beyond hugs and handholding while engaged. Several of these couples took quite awhile to adjust to the marriage bed, and some still struggle.



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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby OldBear » Sun May 11, 2014 5:12 am

Excellent discussion. Lots of perspective and varying degrees of viewpoints. Here's another perspective based on 45 years of experience in a Christ-centered marriage that began with a teenage courtship.

Lip kissing between a man and woman (unrelated) is an intimate act. In many cultures, a greeting with a peck on the cheek (man and woman, woman and man) between good couple friends in formal, even casual, social gatherings is quite acceptable and not romantic in the least. For me and my DW, a 'greeting kiss' on the cheek of a person of the opposite sex is non-intimate. Lip kissing? No. That is strictly reserved for my DW and me. (Although some parents lip kiss their children and vice versa that's never been a comfortable thing for us to do in our family.)

Mrs. Oldbear and I dated for a long time, and during our early courtship we failed to set boundaries - too naive, too aggressive (me), and together too much. Thankfully, as young kids that loved Jesus and were unequivocally resolute to be virgins on our wedding day, that boundary was set in stone. However, and to our chagrin, we engaged in heavy petting including passionate kissing for a number of years leading up to our marriage. As we raised our kids and they grew into adolescence we talked openly about our experience and encouraged them to set boundaries at very safe distances from growing or slipping into uncomfortable positions (literally). Did we teach or tell them 'no kissing' - no. Did we talk about the importance of staying away from inflaming one another - yes. Did we clarify the God created intent and biblical clarity of virginity before marriage - absolutely! We are quite confident (they conveyed directly or indirectly) that all of them entered marriage as virgins.

Setting boundaries is so important. For some, it may be no kissing before the day of marriage - they are to be commended! For others, appropriate and limited lip kissing is their covenant with The Lord.

Mrs. Oldbear and I reflect back on our wonderful lives as sole and soul mates and are grateful for our marriage and MB that puts Christ in the center. Although any regret and guilt of pre-marriage passion has long been dealt with through Christ's grace and forgiveness (her of my over zealous passion) we wish that the boundaries during our courtship would have been more solidly established much closer to the 'no passionate, lip kissing' end of the spectrum before marriage.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby C_Brown » Mon May 12, 2014 6:16 pm

This thread reminds me of a song my sister learned at a church summer camp for girls:

40,000 microbes in a single kiss;
40,000 microbes for a moment's bliss;
Words of Joseph Lister you should well have known;
40,000 present, when you thought you were alone!
So yes, I know that love is unconditional. But I also know that it can be unpredictable, unexpected, uncontrollable, unbearable and strangely easy to mistake for loathing -- Yvaine (in the movie Stardust)

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby LifeAbundantly » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:22 am

Well, my FH and I agreed we could kiss once engaged and so far I'm very glad of this!!! Getting naked/having sex on the wedding night is scary enough and I'm very glad my FH will at least know how to give me a really lovely, passionate kiss. :D

I also think it's important to draw a line between what is "right" and what is "wise." The scriptures are CLEAR that premarital sex is wrong (and arguably other things--petting/nakedness). However there are many cultures where one kisses even strangers on the lips!!! So I think every couple needs to examine what is WISE for them and won't LEAD them to do things that ARE clearly wrong. So, while I definitely think waiting might be wise for some people (and respect a couple's decision either way!), I've also seen already-"awkward" couples just make things more awkward... :roll: and for some (women particularly) it can reinforce strange ideas they have about their sexuality. Even for me, while I feel like I'm above-averagly comfortable with my sexuality, in my community growing up we heard a lot of "no-no-no!" and it can be hard to transition to thinking pleasure is beautiful and acceptable in marriage. Kissing is fun. Holding hands is fun. That doesn't make it wrong. It's beautiful. :D

For my FH and I, kissing has been a lovely way to symbolize our growing romance as we have committed and await the wedding day. (Though, I would note, we have a short engagement--I don't think it would have been wise for us to begin kissing if our engagement was long!) We discussed VERY clear boundaries and so far have been perfectly capable of sticking to them. :-) I feel like when you know where the boundaries are, it leaves you FREE to love appropriately. I think that perhaps where couples get into trouble is when they don't discuss (or share!) their vision of purity--or are without accountability--and gradually let things slide into other things. Time to get over prudishness and discuss this. :D

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby alegria_joy » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:21 am

Gazelle, I am high-fiving you on this post. :mrgreen:

DH and I had no trouble sticking to our boundaries, even though we didn't actually talk through all of them explicitly. We kissed (closed-mouth) during our dating, then moved to French kissing a few weeks into our five-month engagement. But we kept our hands to upper backs, arms, and legs only below the knee, and never under clothing. We enjoyed our kissing mightily and purposely enjoyed the frustration of having to stop if we got heated up; we both took this as a good sign, and really, never once did we cross a line that we would deem "too far." We valued each other too highly to cheapen each other. For my particular sexual wiring, I could get as aroused by simple hand-holding as I did by French kissing, and DH was similar, so we weren't toeing a line that was dangerous for us, but learning to enjoy and trust each other and grow in intimacy as we prepared to sign our lives over to each other. I wouldn't recommend it for everybody, but I also have no regrets about it for us.

We're coming up on our one-year anniversary and are in our 30s, so we'd both had experience with managing our sexuality long before we met each other, but the ability to manage one's sexuality without caving to grand temptation is one that I think varies as much with personality as it does with age. My struggle in dating was to be able to open up, not to be able to slow myself down.

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Re: Waiting for wedding for "first kiss"...

Postby LifeAbundantly » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:54 am

Alegria_joy: High-fiving you right back! My FH/I have almost identically boundaries (and I, too, found hand-holding (or even just hearing his voice!) just as arousing as kissing, :roll: ). Glad to hear I'm not the only one! :-) I am so thankful for this beautiful time of waiting and anticipating--and the beauty of growing and deepening (and well-founded!) trust. :-)


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