Porn w/o lust?

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...
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beautyfromashes
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Porn w/o lust?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:30 am

I can't remember if this has really been talked about, (and if it has, sorry!) but some posts lately have reminded me of this.

Can you look at porn without lust? Does that make porn okay?

My DH has claimed that when he watches porn, he doesn't lust. I've heard similar claims from others here. Honestly, I just don't understand that. I mean, you're watching other people having sex, you're MBing while watching it, how is that not lust?

Can someone explain this to me?

(BTW, DH has been porn-free for a couple months now. As of our last conversation about this, it's because I asked him to, not because he thinks it's wrong.)
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby lee'swife » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:34 am

beautyfromashes wrote: Honestly, I just don't understand that. I mean, you're watching other people having sex, you're MBing while watching it, how is that not lust?


+1

At one time I tried the excuse of not lusting. I mean I didn't want to have sex with the man or woman in the scene. Same goes with animated, I mean that's a bit impossible to have sex with a drawing. But if I'm getting turned on by seeing it then how is it not lust? That was something I could never equate so I quit using that as an excuse.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby alaska bob » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:50 am

Maybe I can elaborate on how some men may be similar to your husband. I used to view pornography as a tool for masturbation. I've seen plenty of it, and I can say that I didn't generally find the women to be attractive in that way. Kind of skanky, kind of trashy, pretty well fake. I never would have said or thought "I wish I was having sex with her now." I would have said "I wish I was doing that with my wife now."

Of course it was arousing, it was stimulating in a visual manner. I guess it really depends on how you define lust as far as whether SOME but not all men could view porn without lusting. "Strong sexual desire" is how my desk dictionary defines it, which seems to be a pretty broad definition. I've tended to view lusting after another woman in your heart as synonymous with wishing you could have sex with her. In other words, Jesus was telling us that it isn't the physical act of adultery that was wrong so much as desiring another woman regardless of whether you were successful at pursuing her or not or even regardless of whether you took any action or not. My own personal theology on this passage is that there has to be some distinction between temptation and committing sin. Jesus did not sin, but he was tempted.

At any rate, whether one can view pornography without being lustful or not, I don't think it is a very good idea. It is clearly not "of the light", and even if you could convince yourself that it wasn't sinful, it doesn't seem like something that is a very good idea. Kind of like playing with fire - even if you don't burn the house down, its definitely better to find another way to entertain yourself. In my example above about temptation vs. sin, the distinction between being tempted by another woman and sinning seems to be kind of blurry, and we (particularly as men) should go out of our way to avoid being in that blurry zone. Avoiding porn seems like a no brainer from that perspective.

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:25 am

I think my DH considers it more "artistic appreciation". He likes seeing naked women. He says he doesn't necessarily want to have sex with them, therefore it's not lust. It's appreciation.

Another thought - what about lusting after the situation, rather than the person? For instance, DH prefers all-girl porn. Obviously, that's not something can be fulfilled in the bounds of marriage, so is that lusting after that situation? The same for me, I used to prefer porn that involved multiple partners. It wasn't that I desired the people in the video, it was the scenario.
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Porn w/o lust?

Postby Sas » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:47 am

How about just the fact that he is supporting an industry that is tearing down what God intended to be sacred. That he is watching someone's daughter or mother doing something sinful and deriving pleasure from it...In my mind to say "I don't lust so it's ok", is just a way to try to justify the behavior. As far as the appreciation, why does he need to appreciate other women naked? That would tick me off more than if he was lusting I think.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby lee'swife » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:52 am

beautyfromashes wrote:I think my DH considers it more "artistic appreciation". He likes seeing naked women. He says he doesn't necessarily want to have sex with them, therefore it's not lust. It's appreciation.


I think that's a cop out. I mean there is nothing artistic about porn women. If he likes the naked form for artistic appreciation go to an art gallery kwim.

beautyfromashes wrote:Another thought - what about lusting after the situation, rather than the person? For instance, DH prefers all-girl porn. Obviously, that's not something can be fulfilled in the bounds of marriage, so is that lusting after that situation? The same for me, I used to prefer porn that involved multiple partners. It wasn't that I desired the people in the video, it was the scenario.


I think this is a very good question. I can relate to this senario and I'm very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions on this.
When did we start thinking that God only wanted us to go to safe places and do easy things?

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby hopeful_again » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:54 am

SavedandSexy wrote:How about just the fact that he is supporting an industry that is tearing down what God intended to be sacred. That he is watching someone's daughter or mother doing something sinful and deriving pleasure from it...In my mind to say "I don't lust so it's ok", is just a way to try to justify the behavior. As far as the appreciation, why does he need to appreciate other women naked? That would pi$$ me off more than if he was lusting I think.



Please don't think that I am 'for' watching porn. I have disposed of all my video 'collections' - however I did keep a couple of instructional videos - and am undecided about them. There are 'how to' videos that sex therapists discuss topic and there are real life couple that 'demonstrate' and 'share' techniques they use in their marriage bed. How to 'make love'. How to 'oral sex'. How to 'sex over 50'. Is that OK to watch with your DW if you are trying to improve your marriage bed? I know at my stage in my marriage it would be WRONG for me to watch by myself - because my motive would be lustful. HOWEVER, if DW was ever 'on board' with improving our marriage bed - would these 'instructional' videos viewed together with the motive of improving our marriage bed be OK and God honoring?

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby The Knight's Lady » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:27 am

hopeful_again wrote:[Is that OK to watch with your DW if you are trying to improve your marriage bed? I know at my stage in my marriage it would be WRONG for me to watch by myself - because my motive would be lustful. HOWEVER, if DW was ever 'on board' with improving our marriage bed - would these 'instructional' videos viewed together with the motive of improving our marriage bed be OK and God honoring?


My personal opinion on this is that it is at best unwise. If either person in the marriage has struggled with pornography, it seems to me that watching an "instructional video" is just opening the door to temptation and sin.

Personally, I think a much safer option would be to read about sex technique in a safe environment like this forum, and then to practice with your spouse. I don't think that there is some technique out there that is so difficult that a video is the only way to learn it.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby hopeful_again » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:51 am

The Knight's Lady wrote:My personal opinion on this is that it is at best unwise. If either person in the marriage has struggled with pornography, it seems to me that watching an "instructional video" is just opening the door to temptation and sin.

Personally, I think a much safer option would be to read about sex technique in a safe environment like this forum, and then to practice with your spouse. I don't think that there is some technique out there that is so difficult that a video is the only way to learn it.


Yeah - that is kind of my thinking too. I guess I may as well get rid of those videos too. I think part of my mind is justifying keeping them since part of me tells myself that someday my wife is going to want to know how to do this better. In reality - I think I am dreaming.

I think I have now been 'prompted' to 'take care' of these final few videos that I have remaining............ Maybe that is another milestone for me and my journey. I am tired of this journey being all uphill...............

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby librarian » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:06 am

beautyfromashes wrote:I mean, you're watching other people having sex, you're MBing while watching it, how is that not lust?


I'm always thrown by this assumption. Is "porn" synonymous with "masturbation?" I hear Gungor link the two all the time, but I'm wondering if that linkage is as absolute as he and others present it.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby catwoman » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:19 am

Can you look at porn without lust? Does that make porn okay?


I can say that I have looked at p without lust. Not often though, and I am sure it was hormonal? Or maybe like a drug addict, it was just to small of a hit? But for me it was during a time when I would look to see if I could get aroused since I was having a hard time ....naturally. Most times it worked but there where a few discouraging times it did nothing. Was it ok? I think - Never.

As far as the situation or senario...yes. I didn't really think about that as my draw or appeal. I think it may be. Revelation again.

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:21 am

SavedandSexy wrote:How about just the fact that he is supporting an industry that is tearing down what God intended to be sacred. That he is watching someone's daughter or mother doing something sinful and deriving pleasure from it...In my mind to say "I don't lust so it's ok", is just a way to try to justify the behavior. As far as the appreciation, why does he need to appreciate other women naked? That would tick me off more than if he was lusting I think.

The "appreciation" thing made me mad too. I don't think he realizes how hurtful that was.
librarian wrote:Is "porn" synonymous with "masturbation?"

I don't think they're necessarily synonymous, but for my DH, they typically went hand-in-hand. I'm just trying to understand this thought process. I've heard other men say something similar. "I just like to look. I'm not lusting, so it's okay." I just really don't get that.

Like I said, DH doesn't look anymore, but he still doesn't see a problem with it. For instance, there's a movie coming out that features several actors I like. Usually, I'd be planning to see a movie with all these actors, but not this one. Why? Because they all play male strippers. DH is sure I'm going to want to go see it, and doesn't understand why I told him I can't. He just doesn't get it.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby Leah » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:22 am

I would say some people probably can. I know I can. When I found out what Jake was into, I needed to know what I was dealing with. I followed every single link and never felt drawn to anything. But it's not a draw for me. I liken it to changing a dirty diaper or cleaning up vomit. It's ugly and stupid.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby PS56 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:44 am

beautyfromashes wrote:Can you look at porn without lust?

I think that some can look at porn without lusting for the performers in porn per se. In other words, I think that it is possible to "lust for" or desire the things that one might see in porn, i.e., an activity, an attitude, a sense of freedom about sexuality, etc., without actually lusting for the person who is doing the act. For example, if one's spouse refuses to perform OS, I think it is conceivable that one might get enjoyment out of porn by seeing the act performed and imagining that one's spouse was performing that very act in one's own marriage bed.

Of course, one danger is that porn is in many, many ways a trap and a very slippery slope. It is very easy to go from being interested in observing an activity or enjoying a depiction of an activity or an attitude, and then lusting or desiring the person in the video or activity. Thus, I would say that it is virtually impossible for one to look at porn on a regular basis, obtain some type of enjoyment such that one wants to keep viewing it, and at the same time not go down that dangerous and slippery slope.

beautyfromashes wrote:Does that make porn okay?

No.

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby mamame » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:01 pm

Does he get aroused by watching it?

If yes - problem
If no - why watch it? Not being snarky. Genuinely asking.

I think you might be spot on about they lusting after the situation thing. There may not be lusting after the people, but there is lust.

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:12 pm

For DH, usually he got aroused by it, but not always. For example, he used to watch porn and MB when I wasn't home because "he was bored". Sometimes, when I was sitting next to him on the couch, he would google things like "Angelina Jolie naked". Sometimes he would get an erection looking, sometimes not. That's when he would claim it was "appreciation". He says he just really likes to see naked women. He doesn't think about having sex with them, because he knows that they're out of his league and that would never happen. He just loves seeing boobies.

I guess I'm not really looking for a "is this right or wrong?" answer, because I think it's wrong. If nothing else, he's not following Prov. 5:19 and letting MY breasts satisfy him. I'm just trying to understand the thinking. I've asked DH and he really can't explain it to me. He's not good with talking about feelings.

He doesn't do any of this anymore. But his only reason for stopping is that I asked him to. I guess I feel like if I understand why he wants to look I can somehow fix it.

I know...it doesn't work that way though...
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby PS56 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:37 pm

beautyfromashes wrote: Sometimes, when I was sitting next to him on the couch, he would google things like "Angelina Jolie naked". Sometimes he would get an erection looking, sometimes not. That's when he would claim it was "appreciation". He says he just really likes to see naked women. He doesn't think about having sex with them, because he knows that they're out of his league and that would never happen. He just loves seeing boobies.


I'm sorry, but this made me laugh. As a fellow member of the male of the species, I would have to call "BS" on your husband on this one. Let me put it this way. If your husband and I were friends and hanging out together, and he saw a hot scantily clad woman walking down the street, and he commented to me that he "appreciated" her, I think I'd wink at him and say, "Yeah, I appreciate her too. In fact, I think I'd like to appreciate her over and over -- and harder and harder." :mrgreen: I mean, come on.

Hey, I suppose one can convince oneself that it's not "lust" because one has no chance of sleeping with Angelie Jolie, but in my book, a man looking at naked women because he likes to see boobies is lusting after, or at least taking pleasure in, another woman's body and her sexuality. That's why it brings pleasure to the eyes. It's stimulating that part of the brain that is aroused by sex and sexual images. The fact that he sometimes gets an erection is pretty good proof of that. The only woman's body he is supposed to take pleasure in is yours.

No offense intended to your husband or to you, but we men are really good at rationalizing where actual or potential sexual sin is involved.

P.S. And BTW, if I was a woman and my husband was sitting next to me on the couch and googling "Angelie Jolie naked," I think I'd snap the laptop down on his fingers. :shock:

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby golfwidow » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:42 pm

I think I'd snap the laptop down on his fingers.


I wouldn't be aiming for those fingers it would be the evidence of his "appreciation"

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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby OldMarriedLady » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:05 pm

golfwidow wrote:I wouldn't be aiming for those fingers it would be the evidence of his "appreciation"

Heck yeah! ::rotfl
hopeful_again wrote: How to 'sex over 50'.

:roll: Somehow I managed to find out how to do this when I turned 50 without having to watch a video - basically it was the same way we did it before I was 50, only better. :wink:
hopeful_again wrote: would these 'instructional' videos viewed together with the motive of improving our marriage bed be OK and God honoring?

My opinion is no, because I really see no difference between instructional videos and porn. It's naked people, having sex/doing sexual things, and you're seeing their genitals. That's porn, marketed as "instructional" to get people who ordinarily wouldn't watch porn to buy the videos. Just because they're "married" (who knows if they really are anyway), it doesn't make it OK to watch them have sex. It's not OK to watch anyone having sex, at least to me it's not. It doesn't matter whether you can watch them without getting aroused or lusting after the people, it's just wrong to watch them in the first place.
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Re: Porn w/o lust?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:06 pm

PS56 wrote:As a fellow member of the male of the species, I would have to call "BS" on your husband on this one.

Yeah, it sounded like BS to me too, but I often don't understand his thought processes, so I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

golfwidow wrote:I wouldn't be aiming for those fingers it would be the evidence of his "appreciation"

That's what I wanted to do, but when you decide to be the "cool wife" and tell your husband it's okay to look at porn, you find yourself in these situations. :roll:
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