Porn w/o lust?

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...
doug-h
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby doug-h » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:23 am

tjw wrote:I like the alcohol analogy. If you and your spouse are not being damaged by it, then it probably does not qualify as "lust", just as an occasional social drink or a beer on a hot day barbecue doesn't qualify as "lust".


Either I did a terrible job of expressing my thoughts, or you are greatly misinterpretin them.

The fact that alcohol is not always the root problem for the alcoholic, doesn't mean it isn't destructive. It just means that the desire to consume is not necessarily the reason he drinks too much.

I never have, and never will equate pornography of any quantity or reason, to sitting on the patio and having a beer with a friend, or a glass of wine with your wife.

I do believe that there are varying degrees of pornography struggles, and there are varying degrees of problems, but it is always a problem.

As for the statement that it isn't a problem for your wife, I don't know if it is true or not, but the consequences does not define the sin. Gluttony is every bit the sin for a skinny man as it is the obese. The consequences are determined by the body you live in, but the sin is the same.

In my rage, I might wound 10 people's hearts, while another might have an audience of thousands, and wound each of them. My sin is as great, but the consequences are different based on outside circumstance.

We can go on as long as you like, and I can bring as many examples as there are sins.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby SeekingChange » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:10 pm

You might look at the original language... Jesus uses the same Greek word, in a positive manner, that is interpreted as "lust" elsewhere.

Luke 22:15, "And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"

"I have earnestly" and "desired".... use a same Greek word interpreted as a negative lust elsewhere.

eta a reference
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby TJC » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:12 pm

I did not say it did not matter, or that it was not sin, I said it mattered more to me than to her. This is not an assumption, it's a stated opinion from DW. It matters to me because of my relationship with Jesus, and that is the only reason it matters to my DW. Because when I struggle she says I don't seem free. There may be deeper issues in our relationship, as a result of this, but at this time none are apparent.
Many of you don't know my history, and I will only say that I have committed sins far more shameful than many of you can ever fathom. And yet God had mercy on me. The only point in this thread is to discover if I am he only one who can see the possibility of viewing porn without any type of lust in the sense of committing adultery in one's heart. As to the term lust that was what I was referring to. I am quite sure that the word that translates to lust depends greatly in the context of the particular scripture. The KJV bible says we are to "lust" after the things that do not perish. Point is I would like to stay on the narrow version of lust in the sexual adultery sense.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby doug-h » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:24 pm

I can't say if you are the only one who believes you can look at porn without lusting, but I think it is safe to say that you would be in the extreme minority among your brothers and sisters, and that should give you pause. If it is not a big deal deal, then it seems it would be easy enough to just put it aside and do something else. If it is totally harmless, which we know to be untrue, it still has no benefit.

You don't eat sand when you are hungry.

I dont think it is useful to make yoursef out to be more wicked than the next, any more that it would be to claim less wickedness. We are all sinners. Praise God for his redemption and his mercy, because we all would be lost without it.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby Hiswifeagain » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:53 pm

What is point of porn if it's not to become aroused by watching it and how is that not lust?


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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby OldBear » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:35 pm

^^^^ Precisely. There are many ways to lust after another person (not your spouse) and viewing pornography is one of those ways to lust. Don't overthink it.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby TJC » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:34 am

I get the sense from many of you, that you think I'm trying to say porn is not sin, or not damaging to marriages. I AM NOT! I'm simply wondering if lust is necessarily a result of viewing porn. I do tend to over analyze things, and maybe that's what's going on here. As to the purpose for it there are numerous that do not include lust in the sense of adultery of the heart. That does not mean they are healthy reasons, or good for those who indulge it.
As for making myself out to be more wicked (I prefer the word scarred), you're absolutely right in that it is entirely not relevant. Neither does it matter if I personally can view pron without lusting.
My train of thought is more along the lines that rather than it is not so bad or OK, it is actually far more insidious than most believe it to be.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby doug-h » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:27 am

TJC

First, I get it. It can be a real struggle, and has been for me. It still is to one degree or another, but it is only one of many, and by far not the most difficult battle I face on a daily basis.



I think that you don't really understand the nature of struggle tho. The struggle is to AVOID those sinful things we are tempted by. If you are not actively seeking to not succumb to those temptations, you are surrendering to them. That is the complete opposite of a struggle. You are only free when your are struggling.

You speak of being scarred. Well I have no doubt that you carry some, as we all do. Some a product of our own choices, some the product of anothers. Christ had his own, and they were testimony to the wounds he took on himself on our behalf.

You are free, obviously, to do what you will, and think what you will. None of us here are your judge. We are, on the other hand instructed to correct wrong thinking and a number of people have been kind enough to attempt to do so. What you do from with that, is between you and God.

I will say that it doesn't sound like you struggle very much. It seems to me that you are quite content with surrendering to temptation, and are looking for justification and allies. If I'm mistaken there, a humbly ask your forgiveness. Either way, one of us is apparently seriously misguided, and I am not going to sway from my belief on the matter, and it appears that you are quite committed to your position. With that in mind, I am going to step out of this discussion and tend to other things.

If you are really interested in struggling, there are programs that can be helpful, where other people with their own struggles, will come alongside and help you.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby Hiswifeagain » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:55 am

TJC wrote:As to the purpose for it there are numerous that do not include lust in the sense of adultery of the heart..


Like what? If you're not viewing porn to arouse yourself, why not view people interacting in nonsexual ways?


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Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby Cayenne » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:30 am

Porn w/o Lust

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby SeekingChange » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:43 am

I hear TJC saying, that he is looking into deeper reasons of why he (or others) may be drawn to porn, beyond just lust. He hasn't said it's not sin, he hasn't said it's not wrong, I don't think he has said it's not causing any damage.

Is this any different then one trying to figure out and deal with why one seems to be drawn to a certain kind, and maybe even sinful, sexual fantasy? We often have to do this kind of digging and processing to help us walk out of something victoriously. This should be a safe place to process.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby TJC » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:48 am

Maybe this thread was a waste of time. This seems to be a very polarizing issue for most. My very first post on the forum was about my own struggle with porn, and how devastating it was to me personally. The point in the question is not to absolve myself of guilt, rather to understand the true attraction. I am not convinced that lust in the sense that I originally intended is it. I think it goes much deeper than that.
Many are asking what other possible reason could there be? The article SP cited in this thread states a pretty obvious one, that of education. Prior to marriage, everything I knew about sex I learned from porn magazines and movies. The article states that most teenagers today are learning about sex via internet porn. I believe this is where it starts for almost everyone who has watched porn. In my former life,when things were bad, I used it to look for that magic bullet that would restore intimacy to my marriage. Other times it was simply a nice fantasy, similar to action hero movies, or spy movies. It provided a temporary escape from my painful reality. For that short period of time, I could imagine myself as something more. I've even tortured myself, with videos of wives cheating and blatantly humiliating their husband via cuckolding videos.There is nothing titillating or pleasurable in such media. It is painful, deeply so. To read or hear wives say things like, "I would rather have sex with a meat grinder than with my husband", hurts and the only person who could find that arousing is someone who is willing to be, and sees themselves as, the type of man that wife seeks out.
To stop at saying that porn is all about lust is IMO far too simplistic. It is to ignore the man behind the curtain. I want to understand how the trick works, so that I can see it coming. I hope this clarifies the why of the question.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby sunny-dee » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:11 am

I think the thing about porn and lust is that we assume that saying "lust" means that you want that specific thing. Like, if porn is about lust, it means you want that actress or that sex life or whatever.

But with a lot of other compulsive behaviors, it's not about the thing itself. It's about the reaction. Most people who smoke aren't all excited about the smell and taste of nicotine; it's not like they're craving ash. But they *do* crave something associated with it -- companionship, stress relief (this one is huge) and peace, even just the complete feeling of satisfying an oral fixation.

Porn isn't educational. When teenage boys look up porn, it's not because porn is intellectually engaging or informative or even realistic. It is because they are curious about sex and porn very immediately addresses that curiosity. My husband said he watched porn because it was easier than having sex. I do believe that his thought process wasn't "let me look up a bunch of anonymous women because I must see their naked bodies right now." I think that he was bored or stressed or anxious or lonely or whatever, and he wanted an outlet that would give him release and a sense of completion. Porn is easy, it's immediate, it's visually appealing, and it doesn't require active engagement. It's not that the porn itself is (necessarily) the object of the lust. It is the means to satisfy the lust.

I'm not saying I'm right, but does this seem more like the type of question you were asking?

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby sunny-dee » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:20 am

Also, if you look at porn as a means ... that lust may be satisfied in different ways by different people or by the same person at different times. If the lust is for sex / peace / companionship / accomplishment / whatever, there are a lot of different ways that the itch could be scratched: porn, alcohol, smoking, food, exercise, work, church, hobbies. Some of those are more subtle than others; some may not appear to be bad because the means is a good thing.

But let's say that my lust is going for validation. Working late so that my boss can give me approval is still a lustful action. It's the motivation that's off even (as Jesus said with looking at a woman lustfully) the action isn't inherently sinful.

Or porn etc could be a proxy for the "real" bad behavior. Like, I really want to do X, but I know X is wrong (or I'm afraid to do it for whatever reason) so I do Y instead, because Y is close enough to satisfy me. In Jesus's example, the guy wanted to commit adultery, but he worked around it by simply undressing women with his eyes.

Or porn could be a proxy to avoid addressing the real issue. Like I am lonely or I have a bad marriage or whatever. The porn (or smoking / drinking / overwork / hobbies) mitigates the pain from that underlying cause. Again, the lust isn't for the porn itself, any more than gluttons are doing it because they really love food. Someone who is 600 pounds is eating way more Big Macs than they are beef burgundy, because it's really not about the food.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby TJC » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:44 am

sunny-dee, this is more along the lines of the question. In the broader sense of lust being a strong desire, you probably could argue that porn is a vehicle to satisfy one's lust, in seeking to alter one's behavior to be someone that women, or men I suppose desire to be sexually intimate with. As for the educational value, if gone into out of curiosity about sex, isn't that a seeking after information? Admittedly, the information is flawed as to the realities of relationships, but the nut and bolt information of how to accomplish intercourse to someone who has never had sex, is without doubt very educational.
Also it could be a means of not addressing the real problems in one's life, hence the part n which I saw myself using in order to escape my painful reality.
In myself I see that the type I'm attracted to depends greatly on the state of my mind. Indeed if I'm feeling content, and confident in my relationship with DW, it isn't even attractive. If I'm in a state of discontent, or feeling undesired, I look for what I can change in how I come across to my wife to affect a different reaction from her. There is a whole industry built around helping men become "alpha males", completely separate from the porn industry.IMO it is as destructive s porn itself. If I'm in despair of things ever changing, or see myself as a failure to my wife-well I don't even want to go there, as I tend to be very self-destructive.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby TJC » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:57 am

In terms of being a proxy for what I really want to do-not really. Been there done that and have only wicked scars to show for it. I truly do desire only intimacy with my wife in all it's forms,second only to my desire to be intimately connected to Jesus. My Lord and my wife are the only ones I have given my heart to and have never made me regret that trust. And it only took 35 years of marriage to realize that. Guess I'm a slow learner.
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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby Pallando » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:34 pm

I would say that there are multiple reasons why someone might look at porn that go hand in hand with sexual lust.

For example, someone who wants to feel control, comfort, secure, loved might find those things in porn. But I think they are also sexually lusting.

I think there are people who don't sexually lust when looking at porn, but I don't think those are the kind of people who watch porn either.

If you are tempted to look at porn, then you are being sexually tempted, even if you have additional reasons for being drawn to porn.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby doug-h » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:49 pm

I'm sorry, I don't see the distinction.

Before you were convicted, you may have had any number of reasons that steered you to lustful behavior, just like the alcoholic has a something that drives him to consume alcohol to the point of drunkenness. The sins themselves are still lust and drunkenness, regardless of the deeper struggle.

Identifying the deeper struggle helps in overcoming the visible sin, but it doesn't change the character of the visible sin.

I'm not doubting that there are other issues, but I don't believe for a second that they remove the element of choice.

I have a longstanding anger issue, and at times it went way over the line and crossed into crimson rage. I never knew I had a choice about that, and I was wrong. It is honestly a much more difficult struggle than porn, because often a circumstance occurs that you have no time to prepare yourself.

Porn, on the other hand, is a series of decisions that you have to make, that lead you to that sin. At every one, you can decide to do something else. It is an active process that both conscious and subconscious are partnering in, because, in almost every case, you CAN NOT LOOK AT PORN WITHOUT DECIDING TO LOOK AT PORN. It isn't like you are walking in a park, and temptation runs past you scantily clad. You have to decide to pick up your phone or laptop, and take a series of individual actions. Every one of those actions is an opportunity to do something different. If you choose to look, then you are no longer struggling, but in fact have given up the struggle.

When I started the recovery process, I couldn't begin to tell you what scars I had on my heart. I had been in denial about every difficult aspect of my past, sometimes not even recognizing I had been impacted. Recovery helped me start seeing things that had been concealed within me, but it was not really instrumental in helping me overcome sin problems. Honest assessment and accountability are the tools for that process. It was much more important for me to see the pain that I had inflicted, than that I had been subjected to.

If you don't know the source of your temptation, then it becomes an interesting academic pursuit, but knowing will not somehow remove the temptation. Triggers seem to be a buzzword in some circles, even within recovery, as if knowing what your triggers are means that all you have to do is avoid them. I know what a trigger is. They are almost constant companions to me. They are an inescapable part of my every day. They are little more than an opportunity not to struggle, but to overcome. Every single one is an opportunity to make a choice to rise above your past. What they are not, is a free pass to sin until you have it all figured out.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby sunny-dee » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:32 pm

TJC wrote:... in seeking to alter one's behavior to be someone that women, or men I suppose desire to be sexually intimate with. As for the educational value, if gone into out of curiosity about sex, isn't that a seeking after information? Admittedly, the information is flawed as to the realities of relationships, but the nut and bolt information of how to accomplish intercourse to someone who has never had sex, is without doubt very educational.


Aaaaaand, that's where you lose me. There is literally nothing in porn that can be applied to real life. It's like thinking Call of Duty is exactly the same training to be an Army Ranger. Not so much. If you're watching it to "alter your behavior," you're not learning how to better connect with someone. You're only getting a different pool of images to use for fantasy and wish-fulfillment. If you wanted to learn how to better please your wife (for example), you would observe your wife, not porn. And, again, the "information" in porn isn't accurate. There are no nuts and bolts about sex there -- part of the problem that even secular psychologists recognize is that porn gives such a distorted view of sex that it twists people's behavior and expectations enough to make them dysfunctional. The appeal in porn isn't that it's accurate, it is that it's titillating. If a virgin wanted to understand the mechanics of sex, a straight up dictionary description would suffice. They watch porn because they know it's arousing and they want to experience arousal.

I think your original question is more on the motivation for porn -- why you are doing something that you don't believe you're craving in and of itself. And since you're not craving porn, is watching porn then lustful. But the answer is, yes, it is lustful. The motivation is lust and the act is lust. The reason it may not "feel" like lust is because of the brokenness driving it, but that doesn't change the reality.

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Re: Does viewing porn = lust?

Postby TJC » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:03 pm

Like I said this thread is probably a waste of time.
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