Porn and Refusal

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...
mamame
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby mamame » Tue May 05, 2015 6:43 am

The refused spouse needs to learn how to stop jumping through those hoops.

Maybe what that wife needs is a husband who can take the lead. If he will continue to jump through hoops, it subtly reinforces that behavior.

That's what I mean about who gets to judge if her needs are met.

I 'thought' I was meeting my husband's needs by being uber submissive. That's the exact opposite of what he really needed in a wife.

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Leah
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Tue May 05, 2015 7:10 am

I don't always think it's the leadership. If a refuser is sinning, it doesn't matter if she is married to the best and most biblical leader on the planet. She is in sin and will view everything through sin-colored glasses.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Tue May 05, 2015 8:21 am

mamame wrote:The refused spouse needs to learn how to stop jumping through those hoops.


Yes. They need to confront their spouse in a biblically acceptable way, but confront is what is needed.

Sometimes I think the game that is played is that "you don't love me" if you won't accept me this way, but the answer to that is "I love you to not leave you this way."

Leah wrote:I don't always think it's the leadership. If a refuser is sinning, it doesn't matter if she is married to the best and most biblical leader on the planet. She is in sin and will view everything through sin-colored glasses.


and yes.
Get out your bible and see what He says. Pray to Him right now and ask Him for His wisdom in the matter. He will not fail you if you put your faith and trust in Him.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Tue May 05, 2015 10:15 am

I agree, Leah. A husband can be the best leader in his community and church, but his home can be a battleground of wills if his wife resists his leadership. A rebellious wife accusing her husband of lack of leadership can use this excuse as carte blanche in her sexual refusal paradigm. After all, if (according to her) he won't or can't lead the way she thinks he should, why then he can't be trusted, and therefore, in order for the marriage to function as she thinks it should, she must take the helm, even in the marriage bed. Since she views him as weak, she's not attracted to him, and heaven knows she shouldn't have to have sex with a man she's not attracted to, even if it is her husband.

The whole thing is circular reasoning, of course, because if she doesn't want to follow his lead anyway, this excuse for her sin of refusal allows her to call the shots via sex.

I agree that the husband must stand up to a wife who keeps setting up the hoops for him to jump through. But what happens when he does that, finally puts his foot down and draws his boundary lines and insists she change, and she still refuses? She's been outed, but she's just stubborn enough to continue to say, "Too bad. I'm not changing. We'll have sex only when I say so." He's done the shot across the bow thing, but he's not willing to terminate the marriage and she knows that. He's stuck and she knows that, too.

There was a point in my marriage when my wife told me basically, "I don't trust you, so I won't allow you to lead." She viewed me as weak, therefore unattractive, and not worthy of leadership. This went on for years and years. Much of this was in response to toxic church teaching, when we had been intricately involved with a church that continuously put down men and pedestalized women. My wife was just taking what she learned in a "spiritual" setting, and putting it into practice in the home, with the blessing of that unbiblical church.

Ironically, I was considered masculine and a leader outside the home. I mentored younger men, was skilled in hand-to-hand combat, and was a borderline survivalist. Not exactly feminine qualities. None of that mattered at home when it came to my taking the lead.

Interestingly---and dangerous, spiritually--was that I was considered attractive and masculine enough to be targeted by women who wanted a fling. I never succumbed, thank God for His grace, but I can't say I haven't been seriously tempted. But it killed me inside to know that other women wanted me when my wife did not.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Tue May 05, 2015 10:54 am

AkMike wrote:The whole thing is circular reasoning


People can argue who is right and who is wrong all day long with no measuring stick or what is actually right or wrong to compare it to. Learning and following what scripture says is right and wrong is the way to go. The circular reasoning here is a violation of probably a dozen scriptures.

AkMike wrote:, of course, because if she doesn't want to follow his lead anyway, this excuse for her sin of refusal allows her to call the shots via sex.


In many cases, especially the ones where the husband has bent over backwards and does everything, It is a power struggle gone wrong. Sexual refusal is the tip of sin iceberg...

AkMike wrote:But what happens when he does that, finally puts his foot down and draws his boundary lines and insists she change, and she still refuses? She's been outed, but she's just stubborn enough to continue to say, "Too bad. I'm not changing. We'll have sex only when I say so."


Studying the Lord's relationship with Israel is probably a good place to start... I read so many posts here and I want these fellows to be tougher, for their benefit, for their wife's benefit, for their families benefit. I get that it is easy to say and much harder to live, especially when children get put in the middle and games are played.
Get out your bible and see what He says. Pray to Him right now and ask Him for His wisdom in the matter. He will not fail you if you put your faith and trust in Him.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Tue May 05, 2015 5:04 pm

Whenever this topic comes up, I'm reminded of Ecclesiastes--"The conclusion when all has been heard is..."

In the case of this topic, the conclusion always seems to be:

* Each is accountable for their own sin.
* Scripture says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It doesn't say, "Do unto others as you feel they did unto you." In other words, we aren't to approach things from an I'll respond to their first step approach.
* There is value in identifying triggers, but there is a fine line between that and shifting blame. The minute one starts saying, "I/he/she did X because of Y rather than Y made them more vulnerable to giving in to X," they crossed the line into self-justification.
* Love keeps no record of wrongs. It doesn't say that it keeps a record only of the ones that make me feel really bad.
* Love believes all. In other words, it assumes the best intentions. One cannot even go into the realm of "what does he/she really need?" without believing that the other has selfish intent.
* Many things are understandable, but many of those are not acceptable.



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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby emtkopan » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:04 am

AkMike wrote:There was a point in my marriage when my wife told me basically, "I don't trust you, so I won't allow you to lead." She viewed me as weak, therefore unattractive, and not worthy of leadership. This went on for years and years.


I'm with you AKMike. I think my wife views me as the weaker person in the relationship. For one thing, my father-in-law lives with us so she will go to him before me (or at least that is the way I am see it). She makes more money than me so what does she really need me for? Nothing apparently. I understand she as stressors in her life and that she is not happy with her body image but that has never affected how I felt about her. What has is her refusal and her attitude. I feel as if I can do little right around her. Sometimes she treats me like a child constantly needing to be supervised. I've been refused long enough that I no longer care. I miss that connection we had. When I felt needed and wanted. It hasn't helped my depression at all either. Before anyone says anything, I am taking meds and seeing a psychologist. I recently had my meds increased but it doesn't seem to help with the current state of things. I know I have been withdrawing (which [ticks] her off more). Yes I watch porn but at least the ones I watch show the lovers as being passionate about each other even if it is a fling or chance meeting. It's something I no longer have, passion for anything. That and the sex.

Someone mentioned that in general many women in other forums feel there is nothing wrong with their relationship and that sex isn't a big deal for them. Then we hear of those women who love sex. Some even have affairs. Why refuse with their husband but willingly give and show passion to another man? It's the same woman! Maybe it's not that the refusing spouse has fallen out of love or lust or both with the person they are married to. Ergo our current high rate of divorce and EA's. I know sometimes I feel like I'm at the brink of wanting an EA but honestly, who would want me when my wife doesn't even want me?


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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Hiswifeagain » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:58 am

emtkopan wrote: Yes I watch porn but at least the ones I watch show the lovers as being passionate about each other even if it is a fling or chance meeting.

Are you saying you started watching porn as a result of the refusal? You hadn't watched it before?
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby emtkopan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:39 am

I watched a little before but not much. I was satisfied. Now it's every few days or every other day.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby bigloop » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:55 pm

The two can be connected, but they must be dealt with independently. One can work on the porn habit even while the marriage bed is not complete. We must remember why or how porn works. Why it is tempting - as the OP mentioned.
But I just wanted to say, you can beat a porn habit without having a great married sex life. They are mutually exclusive and they must be separated and dealt with separately. Otherwise, you will continue to justify sinful behavior.
It can be done.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:59 pm

Indeed, a lot of single people overcome porn habits.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Drob » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:43 pm

I would venture to say that refusal opens the door to temptation. Many have decided to view porn in search of the passion they were not able to get at home rather than seeking an affair. It's not an excuse, but it is a factor. A starving man will steal food to survive knowing it's wrong, sexual starvation is no different. My most vulnerable time is when there is no desire for me from my DW. In my case I looked to porn to fill the void. I'm not advocating porn but I do empathize with those who fall into temptation.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Tweed » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:44 pm

I agree it opens the door. The Corinthians passage warns of satan gaining a foothold if married couples don't come back together after abstaining for brief time for spiritual reasons. How much more so if it's not for spiritual reasons, if it's refusal? I definitely believe we're ultimately responsible for own sin, but it certainly creates an ugly battleground when satan has been given a foothold. I believe this is what happened to me. My DH's ongoing refusal opened the door and I didn't slam it shut. For me it was sex chat rooms. It felt so good to feel desireable. Of course I knew it was all an illusion but when it started I didn't care anymore. Temporary pleasure and feelings of being wanted became my drug of choice, numbing my pain.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Drob » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:51 am

I agree, I was trying to live vicariously through what was playing out on the screen imagining it was my DW desiring me that way, but I still knew it was sin. The conviction would soon follow and brought shame and sorrow. It was a situation that played out every few months. TV shows and commercials were always there to help tempt me to fall again. My DW knew what I was doing and played it off to the idea that all men did it. She told me she didn't care for it but it was OK for me. Several times she asked me what I got out of it and I would tell her the truth, she would just say ok and go on. Thank God she is starting to think more about our sex life and is really putting forth an effort to consider my needs. She is reading books and we discuss this website in a daily basis.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby doug-h » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:30 am

Not sure that I should post my thoughts here, but I feel somewhat convicted.
Please, if they seem harsh, or judgmental, accept that they are not. I have been strongly influenced by the easy availability of porn, and my own weakness is what took me down that road, not any outside influences.

I served in the Military for the first 15 of the 30+ years my wife have been married. In those years, separation of anything up to and over a year was a common part our marriage, and I was not a porn addict. Lack of sex does not make one slip.
That is not to say that I didn't occasionally peruse a Playboy, or a Penthouse magazine, or on occasion visit a Gentleman's club, but the fact is that I went months without either sex, or porn.

When Porn became as common and available as it is now, I fell into weakness. I did it whether I was on the road, or if my wife went to the grocery store. To say that it was because I was deprived of sex, does not fit the facts.

I have no doubt, the temptation is probably higher during a forced abstinence, but if you allow the abstinence be the excuse, then you have already lost.

I have been clean for awhile now, and nothing changed except the fact that I felt convicted to give it up, and equally important, or perhaps, more important, I quit making excuses for myself.

I know it is simplistic, but this very thread voices a lack of conviction, at least in my own view. I could not turn away from it if I could find any justification or excuse, and if force abstinence is an excuse, then believe me, I can relate.

While it may give you some comfort to voice an excuse, no matter how good that excuse might be, it robs you of the very tools God has given you to beat it. If you think you might fall, because of x,y, or z, then a fall is almost guaranteed. If you consider the reason you do it, and grant voice to that reason, then you are justifying it in your head.
If you are "trying" to quit, then you aren't committed to quitting.

Simply quit, And if you fall, quit again. Leave no room for doubt, because that doubt robs you of the free will that God has given you, and gives that power to someone else.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby bigloop » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:02 pm

doug-h,

That was not harsh at all. All truth. Sin has no justification. I believe that recovery only begins when users come to the conclusion that they are responsible for their actions, sin, regardless of how their marriage bed may or may not be fulfilling. Whether or not the spouse is sexually positive or not is a totally separate issue than porn use. Any other conclusion is simply false justification for sin. The sin is adultery of the mind. Maybe not physical, but mental and often emotional.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby birdlovers » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:00 pm

Tweed wrote:I agree it opens the door. The Corinthians passage warns of satan gaining a foothold if married couples don't come back together after abstaining for brief time for spiritual reasons. How much more so if it's not for spiritual reasons, if it's refusal? I definitely believe we're ultimately responsible for own sin, but it certainly creates an ugly battleground when satan has been given a foothold. I believe this is what happened to me. My DH's ongoing refusal opened the door and I didn't slam it shut. For me it was sex chat rooms. It felt so good to feel desireable. Of course I knew it was all an illusion but when it started I didn't care anymore. Temporary pleasure and feelings of being wanted became my drug of choice, numbing my pain.


I was there myself at one point because of refusal and low interest in sex from my wife. I also went to chat rooms and talked and sometimes it was sexual but it was also talking in the way that she and I didn't. Our relationship's intimacy wasn't just stunted in the area of sex, but also in emotions and communication. The temporary pleasure and feelings from sexual talk also enhanced my positive feelings being able to talk to women about life and my hopes and all the rest. It did feel good to be desirable and liked. I totally agree we are responsible for our own sin but the situation I was in gave the avenue for my sinful behavior.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby bigloop » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:07 pm

birdlovers wrote: I totally agree we are responsible for our own sin but the situation I was in gave the avenue for my sinful behavior.


Satan knows our weaknesses and he always tempts us "right where we live." I think that is the connection many seek in this thread. We are angry with ourselves but it is easier to be angry with our refusing or gate keeping spouses. What did Adam say to God? "That woman you gave me....." Didn't work for Adam, doesn't work for us now.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby birdlovers » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:13 am

Amen to that, Bigloop. We can't blame our spouse for our own sinfulness. If we are maladaptive and seek porn for our sexual needs, that is our responsibility. Our own hurt is then compounded and we move further from God. That makes us even less able to be close to our spouse, less able to love them and show grace to them.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby doug-h » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:36 am

^^^ This post speaks volumes to me, because it hits so close to home.

I Know only too well when and how I was tempted, and i know that when you are feeling fulfilled emotionally, it is much easier to resist, and obviously, the inverse is equally true.


My wife has been a gatekeeper from time to time, tho I would never consider her a refuser, but if I remove sex from the equation(and it often was removed from the equation by time and distance), i know I felt starved for attention, and would ache when I would hear her cheerfully having a conversation with a perfect stranger at her work, when I barely got a few minutes of her time on the phone when she was upset about something at home. I KNOW how that feels, so I am not minimizing the impact it has.

What I also KNOW, is that I then put even more distance between us with my own actions. What I came to understand, is that we were both hurting, and in our attempt to assuage some of our own pain, we created more for the other. It didn't matter anymore who started what.

Someone had to break that cycle, and I truly believe that it begins with an absolute commitment to never hurt her again.
No excuses, no caveats, and no expectations of reward. I half expected her to leave me when I confessed.

It was only when I was able to face my actions alone, and believe absolutely and without reservation that I was needlessly hurting her, and that it was not something I could continue doing, that I had the only reason that was powerful enough to change my heart.

I guess what I am trying to share, is that it doesn't matter what your reason for turning to porn is, or why you return to it. It's a red herring. The only reason you should be looking for, is the reason to quit. Not what makes you wish to quit, or what makes you feel bad when you backslide. Find that one thing for yourself, that makes it absolutely, unequivocally unacceptable. When you have found that, you are well on your way to healing yourself, and only then, do you have any chance of truly helping your wife heal.


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