Porn and Refusal

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:51 am

Leah wrote:
padsnd wrote:
kilarin wrote: Porn is no longer considered wrong by society at large.


This is true about society at large, but it is not true about the church. Porn is probably the most frequently addressed topic in most youth groups.


Maybe you are not aware of the music videos the kids at your church are watching? They are considered mainstream, yet the lyrics, costumes, and dancing go beyond what one would see in soft porn.


I still think you are mixing society and church. We have to look at society and church from both perspectives. From a point of what they are watching, I agree--some possibly even many or most--are. From a message standpoint (what is being taught), society says its okay, but we don't have a major shortage on the topic being addressed by youth leaders. That was my point.

I bet if you reviewed the teachings of 100 youth groups over four years of high school, you would find that these topics of porn and even the inappropriate material you describe is addressed in many of the meetings. However, you would be hard pressed to find more than a few of the youth groups that ever heard a message of sex is expected in marriage. At best, they heard that sex is to wait until marriage (as a you can do it then if you want).

As the saying goes:

We teach our kids that sex is disgusting, evil, vile, and sinful so save it for the one you love.

When we should he teaching them:

Sex is beautiful and sacred. It is to be celebrated, and it is God's design in marriage. Not having it marriage is a perversion of God's design. Having it outside of God's design. Both are equally perversions of His design, and He designed it that way to be best for you.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:01 am

Please do not skip over the point that mainstream media is filling our children with strong and inappropriate messages about sexuality.
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“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis


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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:22 am

Leah wrote:Please do not skip over the point that mainstream media is filling our children with strong and inappropriate messages about sexuality.


I don't think anyone is skipping over that point. Mainstream media is filling our children with inappropriate messages about sexuality. Sadly, the church is too. As I said, we have told our kids that sex is bad--not that it has a valid place.

I've said it before. A steady message of complaints about counterfeit bills with no discussion of what is good results in the same results as the counterfeit left alone--destruction of the confidence in your monetary system. The same is true with sexuality. We need to combat the bad, but a positive message is important and that message is what is most lacking in the church. Society is missing both messages, but the church has focused only on the negative message.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:25 am

I think it's both. Stop letting kids absorb the sinful messages and teach truth. I don't mean teach what (sorry in advance) men want women to know, but what the Bible specifically teaches.

Edited to add: It is almost as if the church takes a defensive posture against the messages of the world instead of focusing on guiding the people into real, transforming truth.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:39 am

Leah wrote:I think it's both. Stop letting kids absorb the sinful messages and teach truth. I don't mean teach what (sorry in advance) men want women to know, but what the Bible specifically teaches.

Edited to add: It is almost as if the church takes a defensive posture against the messages of the world instead of focusing on guiding the people into real, transforming truth.


Absolutely.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby txtwindad » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:05 am

angellove wrote:
You seem to be suggesting that sexual refusal is related to bad sex. If the man were a better lover ( not messed up by porn) then the wife would enjoy it more and wouldn't be refusing. Did I misunderstand you or is that what you are getting at here?


Sometimes, it is, but not always. There are a lot of different reasons that sex can be 'bad'. I was thinking about Dr. Schnarch's idea that people don't want to have sex when it is bad. It isn't necessarily about performing the 'right acts'; good sex is more complicated than that.


From our cross section of replies in this thread and others it appears to me the main reason that sex is bad in a marriage has nothing to do with porn and everything to do with a refuser/controller/gate keeper not allowing it to be anything other than bad. We can make love, but only when you are starving and then only with your eyes blindfolded and one arm tied behind your back. I'm sure that the porn reason for sex being bad happens as well, but that is not the main reason based on posts we see on TMB.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby librarian DFC » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:12 am

SeemsLikeYesterday wrote:
Leah wrote:Please don't skip over the point that kids are receiving strong inappropriate sexual images and messages in mainstream media. Nobody in the church seems willing to take that on in any way.


plus 1


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Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:00 am

txtwindad wrote:
angellove wrote:
You seem to be suggesting that sexual refusal is related to bad sex. If the man were a better lover ( not messed up by porn) then the wife would enjoy it more and wouldn't be refusing. Did I misunderstand you or is that what you are getting at here?


Sometimes, it is, but not always. There are a lot of different reasons that sex can be 'bad'. I was thinking about Dr. Schnarch's idea that people don't want to have sex when it is bad. It isn't necessarily about performing the 'right acts'; good sex is more complicated than that.


From our cross section of replies in this thread and others it appears to me the main reason that sex is bad in a marriage has nothing to do with porn and everything to do with a refuser/controller/gate keeper not allowing it to be anything other than bad. We can make love, but only when you are starving and then only with your eyes blindfolded and one arm tied behind your back. I'm sure that the porn reason for sex being bad happens as well, but that is not the main reason based on posts we see on TMB.


This is a key point. A few days ago, there was a discussion about a DH who didn't seem to "learn" what his DW needed. In some cases, this is a DH who doesn't want to learn. In others, it is DH who is doing what he knows because he is not given the ability to learn.

I have spent quite a bit of time in the study of music. If I play a piece today and the director says, "do this, not that." I will need to practice doing it that way frequently. If I am prevented from touching my instrument for a week or two, I will likely play it the same way again. You don't learn something until you do it correctly with repetition, and you don't remember to do it correctly when you next try if there is too much time between opportunities.

On TMB we have individuals whose spouses say, "sex isn't good for me". These same spouses restrict the opportunity to improve under the concept of it is bad. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the same way an instrumentalist who is prevented from practicing because their family doesn't want to listen to a bad performer practice never has the ability to improve.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Dgenerous » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:23 pm

Leah wrote:It is almost as if the church takes a defensive posture against the messages of the world instead of focusing on guiding the people into real, transforming truth.


AMEN.
I have found the one whom my soul loves.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby angellove » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:17 pm

I think we are underestimating the influence porn has on our society and cultural understanding of sexuality. I can remember a time when women were encouraged/taught that they should be the equivalent of porn stars for their husbands. Nowadays, we have a mainstream culture that is obsessed with sexuality but in a way that makes sex a commodity for personal consumption. When kids go to google for their sexual education, or worse to porn, porn has wrapped its black tentacles around the most beautiful, intimate, and pure aspect of humanity. Untangling porn from sex is complicated.

padsnd wrote:I have spent quite a bit of time in the study of music. If I play a piece today and the director says, "do this, not that." I will need to practice doing it that way frequently. If I am prevented from touching my instrument for a week or two, I will likely play it the same way again. You don't learn something until you do it correctly with repetition, and you don't remember to do it correctly when you next try if there is too much time between opportunities.


And if you practice the music over and over without proper form or without reading the music or listening to the director, you aren't going to get it 'correct'. Time away from 'practice' is also important to develop muscle memory and skill.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:33 pm

angellove wrote:And if you practice the music over and over without proper form or without reading the music or listening to the director, you aren't going to get it 'correct'. Time away from 'practice' is also important to develop muscle memory and skill.


I gave a senior recital, and I would take exception to this. An hour every other week is not going to get the job done. Two hours a day five or six days a week is more like it.
Leah

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Kilarin » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:44 pm

angellove wrote:When kids go to google for their sexual education, or worse to porn,

Going to google most often IS going to porn.

And what they find in port is increasingly violent and degrading. So much so that even the world is noticing and becoming worried:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/16/iceland-online-pornography
https://againstpornography.org/crueledge.html

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:46 am


And if you practice the music over and over without proper form or without reading the music or listening to the director, you aren't going to get it 'correct'. Time away from 'practice' is also important to develop muscle memory and skill.


That last statement is completely false.

Yes, practice makes permanent, and perfect practice makes perfect. However, in the absence of opportunity to work on making the correct way permanent, the individual will always revert back to what is most comfortable (what they messed up by playing the first time) for them.

Time away from practice does nothing to develop muscle memory and skill. In fact, time away from practice causes one to lose the muscles that were used to play the instrument. This is true with all instrumentalists to some extent, but the best examples are brass and guitar players. A brass player, who walks away from his instrument for any significant amount of time (more than a day or two), has a tough time playing much of anything. The muscle "memory" was developed not in this time away, but during the practices. What happened in this time away, was the loss of the muscles necessary to execute that memory. The same is true for guitar players and callouses. On other instruments, it takes a bit longer. Even a keyboardist knows though that failure to play for a few weeks is noticeable in their hands.

I don't think anyone here is saying that porn doesn't affect society. It does. There are two problems with stopping there though.

To assume that it does and can't be healed is to deny the existence and nature of God. If He exists and is a God who heals, it is possible for one to be healed. If it is never possible, He either doesn't exist, or healing is not in His nature. Both are very dangerous concepts to believe.

It becomes merely a complaint with no solution. If porn affects everything with no means of "fixing" that, the implied argument is that a spouse who refuses is understandably sinning and one should just accept that. This argument fails because it is sin and, beyond that, the ubiquitousness of the original argument implies that the spouse who entered marriage and then refused accepted the situation at marriage (everyone having been affected by porn at some point, not consistent porn use by spouse), vowed with knowledge of that to all that marriage requires, and later changed their mind. In the case of the spouse who vowed and refused on day 1, that implies a very quick change of mind or a vow taken improperly (without counting the cost).
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:04 am

angellove wrote:When kids go to google for their sexual education, or worse to porn,


This is a whole other topic. Why is it that way though? I can tell you that if I were a kid today growing up under the same circumstances (except the resource of the Internet), I would be doing the same. My parents were very involved in everything else.

When it came to sexuality, I got a little book that was written so poorly to a 10-12 year old that explained sex in such a way that I thought the semen from the man was passed through the mouth (kissing). When I had my first orgasm, I thought that something was seriously wrong (like cancer or something) to result in a discharge like that. It wasn't until health class in high school that I knew there wasn't.

Certainly, the Internet presents sex to all in the form of porn. That is a dangerous thing. Where is the issue that is driving kids to the Internet for sex information though? It is not just the Internet. The Internet provides a place that is perceived by them as having a message about sex. Their parent's message can be summed up as "Don't, and you don't need to know." Even on TMB, we constantly see parents agonizing over whether their kids should be learning about sex instead of what their kids should be learning about sex.

People buy the counterfeit goods only when they don't believe they will ever get the real, lose hope for the real, don't know anything about the real, or think the real costs too much.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby SeemsLikeYesterday » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:53 pm

I had a reply discussing leading or lack of it as a reason for porn. I am guessing most porn portrays some form of abandoned physical restraint also. For a marriage bed this may not exist and may be found in porn. For refusal it is a given it does not exist. But I am guessing the key item missing for many of us is exuberance for the physical in TMB by DH and DW and whether lack of this this greases the road to porn or not I am not sure but refusal sure does not help prevent the draw of sexual enthusiasm elsewhere. s

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby angellove » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:17 am

padsnd wrote:I don't think anyone here is saying that porn doesn't affect society. It does. There are two problems with stopping there though.

To assume that it does and can't be healed is to deny the existence and nature of God. If He exists and is a God who heals, it is possible for one to be healed. If it is never possible, He either doesn't exist, or healing is not in His nature. Both are very dangerous concepts to believe.


I have never assumed that the effects of porn use cannot be healed -- one of the truths that I am very passionate about is God's healing of our brokenness. However, there are a couple of aspects to keep in mind. This type of healing doesn't usually come about just by repenting and abstaining from the sin -- there is a deeper healing that is often needed, one that people don't often recognize. The other thing is that our sins often leave metaphorical 'scars' on our lives that allow God's action to show through.

Time away from practice does nothing to develop muscle memory and skill.


For a guitar player, callouses are not the same as muscle memory. I have seen this work in my own life and the lives of fellow musicians -- suddenly being able to execute a skill after taking a break from practicing. It seems counterintuitive at first because we figure that more practice means better skill, but there is a point where a break from practicing is important for development as well.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:48 am

angellove wrote:
Time away from practice does nothing to develop muscle memory and skill.


For a guitar player, callouses are not the same as muscle memory. I have seen this work in my own life and the lives of fellow musicians -- suddenly being able to execute a skill after taking a break from practicing. It seems counterintuitive at first because we figure that more practice means better skill, but there is a point where a break from practicing is important for development as well.


What you are describing is not about learning the skill. The effect you describe is where the person reaches an "exhaustion" point and needs a break to allow the muscles, etc. to recover before they can develop further. Upon a short break, the ability to perform returns and occasionally the individual actually has learned how to play the part or skill but couldn't because of the exhaustion.

While this effect can exist, it really isn't what applies to this topic. The topic was about a DH who keeps doing the same "wrong" things. I indicated that, if longer periods exist between attempts, he may never be given an attempt to actually learn the new skills. In absence of focused practice a performer will always revert back to what they know (or at least think they know)--even if it is wrong.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby angellove » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:13 am

The topic was about a DH who keeps doing the same "wrong" things. I indicated that, if longer periods exist between attempts, he may never be given an attempt to actually learn the new skills. In absence of focused practice a performer will always revert back to what they know (or at least think they know)--even if it is wrong.


The learning of new skills usually involves multiple pathways of learning -- often there is an intellectual element in addition to the actual practice of the skill. If the one who is practicing is not 'open to input' and critique of their performance, more practice will not 'improve' the performance. If a person decides that they 'know how it is done' without input from others, their performance will suffer.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby txtwindad » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:33 am

I thought the OP was about whether or not refusing contributes to the refused spouse turning to porn. What does this discussion about practice have to do with that? Perhaps, I am missing something, but it seems we've run off down the bunny trail.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby padsnd » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:40 am

angellove wrote:
The topic was about a DH who keeps doing the same "wrong" things. I indicated that, if longer periods exist between attempts, he may never be given an attempt to actually learn the new skills. In absence of focused practice a performer will always revert back to what they know (or at least think they know)--even if it is wrong.


The learning of new skills usually involves multiple pathways of learning -- often there is an intellectual element in addition to the actual practice of the skill. If the one who is practicing is not 'open to input' and critique of their performance, more practice will not 'improve' the performance. If a person decides that they 'know how it is done' without input from others, their performance will suffer.


I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't have someone do X today, provide them with critique, prevent them from practicing for a month, and expect them to improve because you told them what they did wrong 30 days ago. Learning of skills does require practice no matter how you look at it. Yes, there is critique. Yes, you can learn from that, but you can't learn it all without practice.
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