Porn and Refusal

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...
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bigloop
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby bigloop » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:45 pm

I justified it for years along those lines. I also justified it as "better than adultery and easier than pursuing sex since she didn't want it anyway. Absurd justifications. I had been using off and on since I was 12. I just didn't know what I had been doing to myself.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby KyWildcat » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:36 am

cautiouslycurious wrote:I'm wondering if refused spouses feel more 'justified' in the sin of porn engagement, in the same way that refusing spouses can feel 'justified' in their refusal, because of the porn use. So rather than 'x' causing 'y' it's more that the gravity of the sin 'feels' (not is) lessened because of 'x' or 'y' (porn or refusal).

Not sure if that even made any sense, I was never any good at math! :lol:

I'm sure they do feel more justified. The problem is justification, rationalization, excuses, etc. are traps of the enemy. The justification one makes to excuse their sin because of their spouse's sin is just another cycle upon which enemy enjoys watching us all spin.

The beginnings of all of this are usually pretty equally distributed and pre-date the marriage. I mean, marital sex isn't the only instance where one justifies poor behavior because of the poor behavior of someone else... It's just easier to decide we're going to be selfish when we have an excuse to justify our selfishness, or that's how we rationalize our selfishness anyway...
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby MotoX » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:48 am

Well, I was just looking at my previous posts and seen I had posted here awhile ago. I am happy to say that I have been porn free for 3 1/2 months. I haven't had too many urges, although, I have had a few struggles, but mostly, thanks to my wife, she has been really trying for me and it is helped tremendously.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:52 am

That is awesome MotoX! Good for you both!
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:17 am

You know, from an objective viewpoint (with as much objectivity as can be mustered due to the subject), it's interesting that gate-keeping or refusing spouses who honestly don't seem to get it that their spouse needs sex seem to have a completely different mind frame if the deprived spouse falls into porn or adultery. Then then gloves come off, and the outrage is withering. A deprived spouse can resist temptation for literally decades, and it is expected of him/her to just "deal with it", but when he/she finally slips, or chooses sin and enters into the "I've had enough of this" phase, he/she's suddenly a home-wrecker, a pervert, whatever.

No, of course there's no justification for porn or adultery. Both are sin, and a betrayal of trust. I guess you always have to say that just in case somebody gets the wrong idea.

But for crying out loud, you can't have it both ways. Either sex is or is not important in the marriage. If it's important, then it's incumbent upon both spouses to assure the other of access to frequent, fully-engaged sex. If it's not important, then the gate-keeping spouse whose husband turns to porn or whatever has no reason to get all bent out of shape.

For twenty years you've told him sex is just not that high up on your priority list. You give him every argument in the book why the marriage bed should be viewed with disinterest. If he turns to porn for relief, he's just taking you at your word.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby convicted » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:27 pm

^That was hard to read. it just hurts.

I'll say that the purpose of gatekeeping nor refusal has less to do with MB activities and more to due with control and control of intimacy. "I'm not prepared to move beyond this level of intimacy & won't let you either."
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:36 pm

Spot on AkMike. .
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:58 pm

You know, I don't understand--simply can't wrap my head around it--that so many gatekeeper/refuser spouses, men and women, would rather have several knock-down drag-out fights per month about why they don't have to meet the others' needs, rather than, well, simply meeting the other spouses' needs.

I have never been a refuser--never. I can count exactly two times in my thirty-year marriage when my wife wanted sex and I said, "No, I'm not interested." To this day, these two times haunt me. I relive them, kicking myself with thoughts like, "You let slip away, due to your own selfishness, two perfectly good opportunities to give your wife pleasure." The first time I told her "No" was right after we had made love that morning, and the night before. I was sated. Well, she wasn't, and I blew it. I still regret that. But I promised myself afterward that I would never say "No' again, and I even went to her and apologized and said, "I'll never tell you no again. If you want sex, just say the word. Whenever, wherever, and however you want." And I've been good to my word. If she craves lovemaking, I'll drop everything and we'll head to the bedroom.

Not that we haven't had major problems at times. I'm the higher drive spouse by far. And while we don't fight about it much anymore, I do have to deliberately put sex on the agenda if it's anything other than our weekly date night. But it's interesting to note that, not only do I unconsciously count refusal times,but I automatically filed away the times I've refused, as well.

What I really don't get is the fighting aspect of the refusal dynamic. I understand that there are marriages where refusal is the norm, but that there are deep-running issues in both spouses that preceded that. But so often I've read, not only on TMB but on many secular marriage sites as well, that the refused will say that the refuser is such a great spouse in every other way, but is simply not interested in changing the bedroom status quo. So they fight about sex several times a month, raise emotional walls and hard feelings against one another, and the sex quotient still doesn't change.

Will someone please help me understand this particular situation. The question that wracks my brain is, "Is it really easier and more enjoyable to the "It's your problem. You deal with it" refuser to argue and make the refused spouse feel rejected, undesired, a failure, emasculated (if a man), ad infinitum than it would be to simply say, "Okay, that's reasonable. We'll up the sex to three times weekly." ?

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby seeking perspective » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:20 pm

AkMike wrote:You know, from an objective viewpoint (with as much objectivity as can be mustered due to the subject), it's interesting that gate-keeping or refusing spouses who honestly don't seem to get it that their spouse needs sex seem to have a completely different mind frame if the deprived spouse falls into porn or adultery.


Our experience was quite different. In my mind, my husband was responsible for the fact that I didn't want to have sex with him. I didn't truly understand that he had sexual needs beyond a physical release.

There were times when he succumbed to the temptation of porn. Although I'd never thought of the sexual deprivation I visited on him as wrong, there was a part of me that recognized that in not having sex with him, I'd conceded my right to complain about the porn. (I think it would have been a different story had it been adultery rather than porn.) Of all the things I did wrong to him, I did not chastise him for the porn use. And actually, I was a little relieved that he'd gone to porn. I knew it would make him feel guilty and he would leave me alone for a few days. I was a bad wife.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:54 pm

seeking perspective, thank you for your honesty. I know some wives do that--pretend not to notice their husband's porn use and in turn he backs off asking her for sex. It's a trade-off that, temporarily, nets both parties what they want, albeit sinfully, on both parts.

I would hazard a guess that most refusing wives would not take that route, though. I hesitate to do this, but for the purposes of this discussion I think it's okay to make something of a distinction between refusing spouses who have many underlying and deep-rooted marriage issues, and those who have what they consider rather happy and contented marriages, and refuse only because they don't think sex is important. I know something of your backstory, SP, and you and your husband were the former, if I recall. And you also did a remarkable and godly turnaround.

So, while you turned a blind eye to your husband's porn use because it was entwined with both refusal issues and what birthed them, I have a strong suspicion that many refusing wives who fall into the latter category (generally happy with their marriages and think sex is their DH's problem) would scream bloody murder if they found their refused husbands visiting a porn site. For some reason I can't fathom, there is a disconnect in the mind of lackadaisical refusers between their refusal and their husband's eventual seeking temporary release elsewhere.

As a man, I see this issue in a completely different light. If I had years' worth of repeated arguments with my wife over my bored or selfish refusal to have sex with her, and she told me repeatedly how crushed she was by that rejection, I could not bring myself to be angry if she sought out porn. An affair would be ten times worse, but even then, if I was honest with myself, I truly believe that I would own up that my refusing attitude would have played a big part in her decision to seek solace in another man's arms.

It wouldn't make her adultery any less sinful, but in my mind, it would help me to understand how she would be tempted in that area.

I am a "touch" person in marriage anyway, and I've walked away from more than one extra-marital proposition during the really tough years of my marriage. It was not easy to say no. I can still remember certain situations where I actually counted the cost in my mind, steeled myself, and walked away. I loved my wife more than I needed sex. I'm glad I stood firm, but I have to say that a sex-starved man has an awfully difficult time turning away from the offer of unlimited sex, regardless of where that offer comes from.

I say this gently, but I feel it should be said: as bad as porn is, I think refusing spouses who continually reject intimacy with a spouse who's crying for it need to count their blessings that all the refused did was seek out porn and not a real person. Not saying to be grateful for the porn usage, but to be grateful that their refused spouse did not go farther.

Oh, and yeah, when I've got enough sex (three times weekly), I shrug my shoulders at sexual temptation and turn away. It's not hard to do when I'm satisfied. If I can get intimacy at home, the temptation to seek it outside marriage evaporates like fog on a sunny day.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:21 pm

AkMike wrote:If I can get intimacy at home, the temptation to seek it outside marriage evaporates like fog on a sunny day.


Good stuff here AkMike.

One other thought I want to add based similarly to what you are saying. When a porn problem comes up in someone's marriage, often there is this idea that there should be some period of time where the offender has to prove themselves by having no sex with their spouse. Besides this idea not being aligned with scripture, I think it is a very foolish idea and the very worst advice or course of action to take in a marriage that has a porn problem. It seems to bolster all kinds of wrong, the offender who probably went there because they had a need is now supposed to have no need which is ridiculous, and on top of that it tells the person who probably is partially responsible for them being there that (a) they were right in the first place, (b) they think they are justified or in the right to continuing refusal (they are not according to the bible), and that (c) their spouse should somehow be a person who does not need sex (a lie they try to sell themselves).

What a marriage with porn needs is an honest evaluation of what made it weak in the first place. Both parties need to see how their actions contributed and make the changes to strengthen the marriage. A husband, being responsible to lead his family, should lead his wife into a healthy marriage bed that blesses them both.

Now with all that said, there are those porn problems that don't arise out of refusal or gatekeeping, but discontentment. I think those are a whole different breed.

I am always impressed and have a great deal of respect for wives that come on here who said that their husband has/had a porn problem and they want to help him and do all they can to help him overcome it, and put their marriage in a stronger place. These are wives who see the bigger picture. I have a great deal of respect for them.

I'll add that I have a lot of respect for the many women regulars around here who share their stories of growth to help others. It is very brave.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby seeking perspective » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:29 pm

AkMike wrote:So, while you turned a blind eye to your husband's porn use because it was entwined with both refusal issues and what birthed them, I have a strong suspicion that many refusing wives who fall into the latter category (generally happy with their marriages and think sex is their DH's problem) would scream bloody murder if they found their refused husbands visiting a porn site. For some reason I can't fathom, there is a disconnect in the mind of lackadaisical refusers between their refusal and their husband's eventual seeking temporary release elsewhere.


I think this is especially true when the refusal is grounded in bad teaching about sex. If a woman thinks it is wrong to be sexual or that a husband's sex drive is a perversion, the porn use can be upsetting simply on the grounds that it is further proof of his inability to control his sex drive.

I say this gently, but I feel it should be said: as bad as porn is, I think refusing spouses who continually reject intimacy with a spouse who's crying for it need to count their blessings that all the refused did was seek out porn and not a real person. Not saying to be grateful for the porn usage, but to be grateful that their refused spouse did not go farther.


I agree. I am very thankful for that.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby poetess » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:15 pm

sd595, by the grace of God, I've never had to deal with porn in my marriage, but if I had, I am pretty sure I'd find this wording hard to take:

. . . the offender who probably went there because they had a need is now supposed to have no need which is ridiculous, and on top of that it tells the person who probably is partially responsible for them being there . . .


So the offender sins because of "need" (not sinful desire), but the other spouse is "probably" partially responsible for what sin there is? When dealing with issues of sin, taking responsibility for one's own sin is a good place to start. And from what I hear (and can only imagine), when one's husband is involved with porn, it drops a wife through the floor. It would be pretty natural if that hurt a wife's libido for a while, and abstaining from sex for a set period might indeed (sometimes) be a wise way to get through the aftermath, much as abstaining after adultery might be the right thing to do . . . and 1 Corinthians is no more dealing with such a situation than it is dealing with a couple abstaining from sex for a few weeks after childhood [whoops--of course I meant "childbirth"]. It is talking about willful withholding, not a time of regrouping after sexual sin.
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Re: Do you count?

Postby sd595 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:44 pm

Even if a husband or wife's libido drops out, they still need to meet their spouse's needs according to the bible.

Sure the person who sins owns their choice, but someone else may be partly responsible for their choice in causing them to stumble at the same time.

If I leave out $500 in an open window in my car when I know it may very cause others to stumble, then my sin would be putting them in a position to stumble. If someone stole it, their sin would be stealing it. If that happens given this situation, I would be partly responsible because I knew very well that it might cause them to stumble.

This may be a male/female point of view type of situation as I totally get where AkMike is coming from on this.

I think the point AkMike was making is that there seem to be some refusers who don't understand that their actions make their spouse (and marriage) very weak and they don't give a second thought to it, putting it all on their spouse when they are the ONLY person who can help them. They are certainly also responsible for the situation.

So yes, each should own their own, both should realize immediately that there is a serious problem, both should realize they each had a part to play, and both should work together to fix.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby SeekingChange » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:52 pm

Do you believe if the porn use came into the marriage, before any gatekeeping or refusal could happen, does the porn user hold some responsibility to the gk/refusers choice to withhold sex?
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:39 pm

SeekingChange wrote:Do you believe if the porn use came into the marriage, before any gatekeeping or refusal could happen, does the porn user hold some responsibility to the gk/refusers choice to withhold sex?


So the porn user is also partly responsible for causing their spouse stumble to refusing? Sure, I can see that. Same deal though, each owns their own, refusing is the refuser's sin, and their spouse causing them to stumble is responsible for the causing them to stumble. Both could causing stumble and both could be sinning! Who wins in that? The enemy, not the couple nor the Lord.

There becomes a problem when one person tries to justify a sin because of another person causing them to stumble. When someone is weak, you can "understand" how they fell, but that doesn't change that they need to stop sinning AND the other needs to stop doing anything that causes them to stumble as well. No "you go first, I'll go if you go", or any of that. Both stop sin, both stop what is causing the other to stumble. This is what I was trying to address above. Some people's solution is, "you stop sinning, I'm NOT going to change anything to stop putting you in a weak place, and I am still going to sin against you by refusing you, and I somehow I think I am justified in doing this." This is not the solution.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:42 pm

Porn is sin. Refusal is sin. Christians repent. Christians forgive. That's the Biblical answer. The more mature person, and the person with the greater burden for a healthy marriage goes first.

A refuser should not expect a porn user to stop using. A user should not expect a refuser to stop refusing.

I seriously question the maturity of Christians who expect to change others without changing self. I was married to both a user and refuser at the same time, and I know I had plenty to address on my own part. Managing self is a full time job.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:54 pm

I used to go to strip joints and watch porn all the time when I first got married, before either my wife or I came to Jesus. My wife had no problem with it. She thought it's just what men do, and that it shouldn't affect her decision to not have sex if she did not want it. At the same time, we were having major issues with sexual frequency, so I used porn, etc. to fill the void. When we came to Christ, the porn just stopped, but the issue of low frequency did not.

If long term refusal comes before porn use, then to me, the evidence seems to point to cause and effect. In that case, it just doesn't make any sense to condemn the porn user for resorting to porn if his needs have been a long time ridiculed/minimized/disregarded. No man can go indefinitely in an emasculated state and remain unscathed. In that case, the refuser has some reaping going on from the sowing he/she has actively pursued for years.

This may seem cruel, but I have no--zero--sympathy for a long term nonchalant refuser whose spouse turns to porn. Isn't that what you wanted in the first place? After all, he/she isn't bothering you for sex anymore, right? Again, you can't have it both ways. Most men who turn to porn after years and years of rejection absolutely hate the porn. They would much rather have their wives in the marriage bed. Reluctant porn users who are married didn't get married to remain celibate. Either it's important to sex your spouse, or it's not. If not, then the refuser has no right to complain when the refused gets sex somewhere else.

Ask the refused spouse. He/she generally hates the porn, but gives in because seeing people actually enjoy sex is something that is embedded into the human nature. If even for a little while, the refused can see that others are enthusiastic about the sex he so fervently craves. Viewing porn (even though it's sin) shows him that he's really not the pervert his/her spouse has painted him to be. It's very sad that the world can demonstrate a truth (sex is good, enjoyable) that Christian refusers cannot demonstrate.

And yeah, I think (and Scripture bears this out) that a spouse caught using porn should not be deprived of sex with his wife, if he gives up the porn. Forget this open-ended "I'll let you have sex with me when I think you've been punished enough" deal. If he doesn't want to give it up, then maybe that's another ball game altogether. But the man who turns to release after being refused for years by his wife...no, he should not be denied the very thing he's wanted all along--married intimacy. If he'd been given the intimacy he'd desired in the first place, he would likely not ever have been found among the ranks of porn users.

Also, I find it very interesting that a wife who has been caught using porn is not commanded by counselors or her husband to abstain from sex with her husband and/or not masturbate for 90 days or whatever. No, generally, the husband will welcome her back into the marriage bed immediately. I know I would.

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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Fri May 01, 2015 12:24 am

I agree with you, AkMike. The issue of forgiveness is a big one. The Bible says we are forgiven and are required to forgive. It really is a bottom line. The sins committed by others are never a justification for sin of any kind--especially the choice not to forgive. We are instructed to pray that we will forgive, and we are told to do it. Tender heartedly.
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Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby poetess » Fri May 01, 2015 5:00 am

BTW, I agree that one person's sin can leave the other spouse open to sin; it's saying it's "probably" partly the other person's fault that bothers me. Maybe, maybe not. And does lack of access to sex justify porn use by any single man? Yes, forced celibacy* within marriage is different . . . but a single man can also be sexually frustrated (or a single woman). We still have to own our own sins.

And it should go without saying, but obviously I don't believe that a wife can withhold sex to "punish" her husband after he gives up porn--or even before he gives up porn, for that matter. But if she is so devastated by it that she can't bring herself to have sex with him this week, then yes, that is part of the "consequences" of the sin. The biblical command not to refuse does NOT say "never, ever say no for any reason" (if it did, then it would be a sin not to have sex the day after a hysterectomy, if the husband wanted sex). It is talking about willful refusal. "Honey, I found out two hours ago you've been ogling other naked women, and sorry, I just cannot bring myself to be that vulnerable with you right now" is not willful refusal.



*edited because I wrote in a hurry, and accidentally wrote "chastity" instead of "celibacy"
Last edited by poetess on Mon May 04, 2015 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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