Porn and Refusal

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...
User avatar
Kilarin
Under the stars
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Kilarin » Mon May 04, 2015 5:03 am

AkMike wrote:If long term refusal comes before porn use, then to me, the evidence seems to point to cause and effect. In that case, it just doesn't make any sense to condemn the porn user for resorting to porn if his needs have been a long time ridiculed/minimized/disregarded. No man can go indefinitely in an emasculated state and remain unscathed. In that case, the refuser has some reaping going on from the sowing he/she has actively pursued for years.

There are two very different points here. You are certainly correct that a refuser (of either gender actually) bears some responsibility for helping their spouse to be tempted to stumble.
But then you say "it just doesn't make any sense to condemn the porn user for resorting to porn if his needs have been a long time ridiculed/minimized/disregarded."
The fact that someone else tempted them in NO WAY reduces the responsibility of the spouse who CHOSE to sin by using porn. The fact that a wife did something infuriating in no way excuses her husbands choice to beat her. The fact that a husband has been ignoring his wife in no way excuses her choice to have an affair. And the fact that one spouse has been sexually refusing the other does NOT excuse the refused spouse choosing to sin with pornography. We are each responsible for our own choice to sin, and no matter WHAT the temptation, we had a way out:

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

There is certainly enough guilt to go around on all sides of the issue, but the fact that others bear guilt as well never reduces ones own guilt for choosing to sin.

User avatar
seeking perspective
Under the stars
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:01 am
Date of your marriage (past or future): April 27th, 1991
Gender: Female
Location: between the Northwoods and the Great Plains and the Great Lakes
Contact:

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby seeking perspective » Mon May 04, 2015 6:53 am

AkMike, the word "nonchalant" assigns a motive (or maybe a lack of motive). That isn't a fair thing to do.

The fact that you see no self protection doesn't mean that there is none. Granted, sometimes refusal has nothing to do with self protection. Sometimes it is a result of bad teaching or a lack of understanding of the role of sex in marriage. Perhaps this is nonchalant, although if a woman believes it is her responsibility to control her husband's appetite, she is not nonchalant (even though she is quite wrong).

Self-protection of some kind plays a role in more situations than we might think. Sometimes it is the response to something that happened in the marriage. Poorly chosen words or actions early in the marriage might erode trust and begin the building of a wall. Once the pattern of self protection begins, we sometimes can no longer see that it is a pattern that can be broken. I want to note, too, that a refused spouse may not have accurate information. A husband may ask his wife what's wrong, and she'll say "Nothing. Everything is fine." Maybe she doesn't recognize for herself what the issue is. Or maybe she would rather have the fight she knows (about sex) than the even bigger fight that she fears is waiting for her if she shares what's really going on. Or it hurts too deeply to put into words. Or she's already told him and he's dismissed what she said, so why bother? What we hear from refused spouses may be honestly reported--but that doesn't mean they are working with all the relevant information. What he perceives as her needs being met (perhaps because this is what she has said her needs are) may not be a complete picture of her needs.

Even more than this, though, I hear from quite a few women about self protection that is grounded in the baggage they brought into their marriages. Childhood sexual abuse, premarital sex, negative childhood experiences with men, and any coerced sex at all can create damage and a need for protection. Sometimes we marry thinking that in marriage, sex will be different. We want to have sex with the one we marry, and we look forward to being one flesh. We have no intention of being a spouse who refuses. But patterns of belief and attitude rise up and smack us down, and without intention and effort on our part, they can easily take hold of us.

The desire for self protection may be selfish, and the desire for control may be a way of ensuring that protection--but it is not nonchalant. Sinful? Yes. Nonchalant? Nope.

A spouse who refuses out of a sense of self protection has a responsibility to be working on those underlying issues, just as s/he has a responsibility to be working on sexual intimacy. The reasons that led to the refusal do not justify the refusal, but they should not be dismissed in an assumption of nonchalant refusal.
You turned my wailing into dancing . . .
~Psalm 30:11
The Forgiven Wife
and Sex Chat for Christian Wives

User avatar
Leah
Under the stars
Posts: 16016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:42 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): November 3rd, 1979
Gender: Female
Location: The Volunteer State

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Mon May 04, 2015 7:13 am

Self-protection is a euphemism for unforgiveness because the self protector is keeping track. It also assumes a motive, or at the very least presupposes the other spouse is wrong and the self protector is right. The Bible says love believes the best about others, keeps short accounts, and forgives everything. We can do this relationship thing all day, but I am always responsible before God for my attitudes and actions. Always.
Leah

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis


TMB Copyright and Fair Use

User avatar
SeekingChange
Under the stars
Posts: 5252
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:41 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): August 17th, 1994
Gender: Female

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby SeekingChange » Mon May 04, 2015 7:59 am

I think some could say self-protection equals boundaries too, so if you are setting up boundaries, are you walking in unforgivesness? I am sure the answer would be no, so I don't see how one can label "self-protection" as always walking in unforgiveness.
God can change what people do, behavioral patterns that have been in play for decades. He can change what we do to cope, find comfort, survive conflict, to count. Rahab had done a same old thing for years...then she did something new.

My Story

User avatar
Hiswifeagain
Under the stars
Posts: 3718
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:57 am
Date of your marriage (past or future): June 30th, 1984
Gender: Female
Location: The land of 10,000 lakes and road construction projects

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Hiswifeagain » Mon May 04, 2015 8:06 am

WE can't know another person's motives. Something may be a boundary or it may be a punishment. Sometimes the only difference is the motive. We all agree that withholding is wrong. That's what we know. Motive: That only God and sometimes the person themselves, know for sure.
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

sd595
Under the stars
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:26 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): January 5th, 1996
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Mon May 04, 2015 8:54 am

I am with Leah on this.

I don't see self protection as a trait that scripture holds up, to me it falls under one of those things we call understandable, but understandable doesn't mean it is right, and if it goes against doing what scripture says is right, it turns into justification...
Get out your bible and see what He says. Pray to Him right now and ask Him for His wisdom in the matter. He will not fail you if you put your faith and trust in Him.

User avatar
seeking perspective
Under the stars
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:01 am
Date of your marriage (past or future): April 27th, 1991
Gender: Female
Location: between the Northwoods and the Great Plains and the Great Lakes
Contact:

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby seeking perspective » Mon May 04, 2015 9:00 am

I agree that there is sin:

seeking perspective wrote:The desire for self protection may be selfish, and the desire for control may be a way of ensuring that protection--but it is not nonchalant. Sinful? Yes. Nonchalant? Nope.

A spouse who refuses out of a sense of self protection has a responsibility to be working on those underlying issues, just as s/he has a responsibility to be working on sexual intimacy. The reasons that led to the refusal do not justify the refusal, but they should not be dismissed in an assumption of nonchalant refusal.


I'm taking issue with the word "nonchalant" and the assumption of a particular motive.
You turned my wailing into dancing . . .
~Psalm 30:11
The Forgiven Wife
and Sex Chat for Christian Wives

User avatar
Leah
Under the stars
Posts: 16016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:42 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): November 3rd, 1979
Gender: Female
Location: The Volunteer State

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Mon May 04, 2015 10:51 am

I took the term to mean habitual and automatic.
Leah

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis


TMB Copyright and Fair Use

User avatar
poetess
Under the stars
Posts: 3132
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:47 am
Date of your marriage (past or future): October 8th, 2011
Gender: Female

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby poetess » Mon May 04, 2015 11:41 am

If we wonder how a woman can return time and again to a series of abusive men, but we also say that self-protection is wrong . . . it isn't always wrong. Sometimes it is sin, sometimes it reflects real brokenness (she knows no other way to relate, as she has never been in a relationship that feels safe), and sometimes it is wisdom (the person against whom she is protecting herself truly does not have her best interest at heart).

I've never been molested, never had my arm broken by an abuser, never had a spouse or parent using porn. But as a child I was seriously bullied and I had to deliberately choose to learn how to make friends in young adulthood, since I had no social skills and no way to learn social skills other than starting a self-study course to learn them. Learning healthy self-protection was part of that process, until I could learn enough discernment to know who was or wasn't safe. By God's grace I never had a man see my vulnerability and take advantage of me . . . but the principle is the same. I trusted people who weren't trustworthy because discernment isn't something we're born with. Self-protection is sometimes wise, sometimes unhealthy (because the person hasn't yet learned healthy relating), and sometimes sin. It depends on the situation. Now I'm healthy and I trust my husband completely--but a quarter century ago I was a mess, and had to learn how and when and whom to trust, and how and when and whom and not to trust.
Marriage--what a wonderful image of Christ's love for His bride!

AkMike
King bed
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:35 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): June 16th, 1984
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Mon May 04, 2015 11:49 am

Leah wrote:I took the term to mean habitual and automatic.


You are correct, Leah. Thank you.

I also use the word "nonchalant" not to assign motive, but as an observation of the person's actions. I can't see directly into a person's heart, but if I have long and intimate association with a particular person, I can observe how they are acting toward me and make some basic deductions. Making deductions upon a person's repeated actions is an integral and necessary part of any relationship dynamic. We all do it, and as married people we have a basic right to do so.

Even in the everyday work world we see this play out even in our interactions with people we don't know well or at all. For example, if I see someone on the street approaching me with furtive actions, and appearing to single me out, I'm smart to note that and to take my own evasive or protective response. At that point, I have no idea if their heart motive is robbery, harassment, or just hitting me up for some loose change. All I know is that they are acting toward me in a way that signals ill intent. I'd be foolish to disregard their actions and pretend I didn't notice.

In dysfunctional marriages, and even in many other intimate, long-term relationships that have serious underlying issues, a good maxim to hold to is, "Don't listen to what they say as much as watch what they do."

We can talk all day long about giving the benefit of the doubt to a longtime refusing spouse, and trying to give some credence to a laundry list of excuses for not having sex, but when the refuser has demonstrated repeatedly, over the years, that the marriage bed is just not interesting enough to bother about, the refused spouse would be foolish to believe anything other than what he/she has repeatedly, for years, observed with their own eyes.

I know when my wife is bored with something. Nobody's got to tell me, "Hey, look! Every time you mention going to visit so-and-so, she yawns or rolls her eyes. She doesn't want to go." I know my wife better than anyone else alive. And ditto, her knowing me. She's often nailed me with the truth when I've given her excuses (lies) to the contrary. How do you hide your attitudes from a person you've shared your life with for thirty-some years. You don't. You better believe they know all the cues you use to show your interest or disinterest in something. Gut instinct or godly wisdom tells a spouse they're being put off, minimized, or deflected.

How many refused spouses on TMB have said, "When I mention sex to my spouse, they heave a sigh, roll their eyes, pinch their lips together, shake their heads"? How many refused spouses on these boards have said their spouse "Give in" after a month of being pestered for sex, or "services" them quickly, often telling the refused spouse to "hurry up"? This isn't conjecture. These attitudes reflect boredom, disinterest, disdain, and control of the other spouse.

Long-term refusers who are generally getting their needs met will often come up with a lengthy list of (often inane) excuses, and they get offended when the refused finally refuses to believe them anymore. This may be unpleasant to hear, but long-term refusers who are "Meh" about sex lie. Their list of excuses is just that, excuses. They are not the truth. Better to just come out and say to their spouse, "I won't have sex with you except once-a-month, on my terms, so don't ever ask again." I hate hearing that, but at least I can deal with that, because it's honest, straightforward selfishness. Actually, from reading these boards, many refusers do come right out and say these things. Happens all the time.

Sooner or later, the refused will figure out that they're being played. They (the refused) will finally figure out that, no matter what they do--work longer hours, become more cheerful, do all the housework or hire a maid so the refuser can have more "personal time"--it will never be enough to warrant enthusiastic, engaged sex from the refuser. Hoops are there for a reason, and the more hoops a refused jumps through, the more hoops he/she will find waiting on the other side.

Many times the long-term refused will reach a saturation point and give up trying. Sometimes they turn it over to the Lord and live in sexual misery. Sometimes they turn to porn, preferring the short term release of sin to struggling one more day without sex of any kind. Sometimes the refused's sex drive withers and evaporates. And sometimes the refused will actually become the refuser. Their heart is hardened to the refusing spouse, who suddenly realizes that the one power they've held all those years is now irrelevant. I've known refusing spouses to become terrified of losing the one they've refused for so long, and frantically try to revive sex that the refused will no longer provide.

What lackadaisical (nonchalant) refusers don't quite understand is that, a person deprived of the main thing they married for--the oneness, the intimacy of married sexual union--can reach a point where they just don't care anymore. Something happens, inside, to some refused. Call it a switch flipped, a line crossed, whatever, and they just don't care anymore. Not a godly attitude, but if you're talking about self-protection, maybe this is a relevant example. Very, very sad.

And, just so there's no misunderstanding, I never said that the refuser was responsible for the refused turning to porn. What I said, repeatedly, is that, if a refused spouse turns to porn after years/decades of being minimized, called a pervert, emasculated, etc., then the refused is seeing a harvest of bad fruit from all the years they've invested in refusing the one who loves them with all their heart. What I said is that a longtime, "nonchalant" refuser cannot point to the refused's eventual porn use and cry foul. I said that the refuser was seeing cause-and-effect, a sinful reaction (porn) to the refuser's own persistent sin.

Sorry for the long post.

User avatar
seeking perspective
Under the stars
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:01 am
Date of your marriage (past or future): April 27th, 1991
Gender: Female
Location: between the Northwoods and the Great Plains and the Great Lakes
Contact:

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby seeking perspective » Mon May 04, 2015 12:04 pm

I was using this definition of nonchalant: feeling or appearing casually calm and relaxed; not displaying anxiety, interest, or enthusiasm.

Most refusing spouses I know of are not feeling calm or relaxed, and they often display signs of anxiety.

I understand what you were getting at now.
You turned my wailing into dancing . . .
~Psalm 30:11
The Forgiven Wife
and Sex Chat for Christian Wives

AkMike
King bed
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:35 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): June 16th, 1984
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Mon May 04, 2015 12:26 pm

Thanks, seeking perspective.

Yet, there appear to be a great many refusing spouses who are exactly that--nonchalant, "meh", roll-eyes, etc. We read about it all the time on TMB. I've also read about it quite commonly on many other Christian marriage boards I frequent, as well as secular marriage boards. So many women posters in those forums saying basically, "I've reached menopause, and I'm through with sex," or "I don't owe my husband sex. I believe it is to be shared only when both spouses want it." Very common attitude. Again, both Christian and unbelievers are posting these things, so it seems to be a common attitude regardless of one's personal faith.

I do agree, though, that many refusing spouses have deep underlying issues that spur their refusal. Still doesn't make it right, but I do understand these situations exist. That's why I've been careful to delineate the kind of refuser I'm talking about.

sd595
Under the stars
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:26 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): January 5th, 1996
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Mon May 04, 2015 1:06 pm

AkMike wrote:I'm through with sex," or "I don't owe my husband sex. I believe it is to be shared only when both spouses want it."


A small drop of mistruth can cause oceans of damage...
Get out your bible and see what He says. Pray to Him right now and ask Him for His wisdom in the matter. He will not fail you if you put your faith and trust in Him.

mamame
Pay no attention to the folks behind the curtain.
Pay no attention to the folks behind the curtain.
Posts: 7580
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:16 pm

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby mamame » Mon May 04, 2015 2:23 pm

AkMike wrote:. When the refusing wife is getting all her needs met, but still refuses,


I'm with you on principal, but getting hung up on logistics.
Who gets to be the judge of how well her needs are being met?

AkMike
King bed
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:35 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): June 16th, 1984
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Mon May 04, 2015 2:41 pm

mamame wrote:Who gets to be the judge of how well her needs are being met?


In many of the Christian and secular marriage websites I frequent, it's the wives themselves who posts in the comment sections who often say things like, "I just don't get why it's such a big deal. We have a great marriage, except for the sex issue. Why can't he just accept me as I am?"

Rinse and repeat,only using different words but with the same meanings, conclusions. The point being, the wives themselves, refusers and gatekeepers, often say the marriage is terrific, except for his bothering her for sex more than once a week or once a month. We've got some notables on TMB whose wives have said the same things for years and years.

This attitude is very, very common on marriage boards all across the internet, Christian and otherwise.

User avatar
Leah
Under the stars
Posts: 16016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:42 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): November 3rd, 1979
Gender: Female
Location: The Volunteer State

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Mon May 04, 2015 3:06 pm

I don't think anyone is judging that. I am saying that harboring resentment and unforgiveness is sin, no matter how you slice it.
Leah

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis


TMB Copyright and Fair Use

mamame
Pay no attention to the folks behind the curtain.
Pay no attention to the folks behind the curtain.
Posts: 7580
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:16 pm

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby mamame » Mon May 04, 2015 4:45 pm

I'm with you.

In these situations the refused party needs to own their part.

If it's that big of a deal to then they need to be bringing it to the forefront of the marriage. The refusing party should have no doubt about the condition of the marriage. They need to know it is broken.

sd595
Under the stars
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:26 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): January 5th, 1996
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby sd595 » Mon May 04, 2015 4:56 pm

mamame wrote:
AkMike wrote:. When the refusing wife is getting all her needs met, but still refuses,

Who gets to be the judge of how well her needs are being met?


To be clear, let's back up here. The bible does NOT say that a wife can refuse if her needs are not being met. If her husband is not loving her and treating her flesh as his own, then that should be addressed, but refusal is not the biblically correct way to do that.
Get out your bible and see what He says. Pray to Him right now and ask Him for His wisdom in the matter. He will not fail you if you put your faith and trust in Him.

User avatar
Leah
Under the stars
Posts: 16016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:42 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): November 3rd, 1979
Gender: Female
Location: The Volunteer State

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby Leah » Mon May 04, 2015 5:21 pm

When there is either porn or refusal going on, it is evidence that the relationship is horribly off kilter. A marriage involves two people, and I have yet to meet a person who is without flaw. There is no judge of bigger or smaller sin, or anything else. It is sin, full stop. Nobody ever gets to go to Jesus and say, "Please don't hold my sin against me because my spouse is doing a bigger sin."
Leah

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis


TMB Copyright and Fair Use

AkMike
King bed
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:35 pm
Date of your marriage (past or future): June 16th, 1984
Gender: Male

Re: Porn and Refusal

Postby AkMike » Mon May 04, 2015 5:39 pm

"Needs", from a refusing spousal perspective, can be extremely subjective, and fluctuating. The "nonchalant" refusing spouse will very often tell the refused, "I need you to do this, this, and this, and then I will be ready to meet your needs." Thus, the time-honored "hoops" that are set up for the refused to jump through. Unfortunately for the refused one who is naive, he/she will discover that, once those criteria are met, another, even higher bar of criteria are set, and thus begins the hoop-jumping process again, this time with even greater exertion on the refused one's part.

In this way, the nonchalant refusing spouse never has to actually meet the refused spouse's very real need for sexual intimacy. If married to a refuser, Superman would not be able to jump through enough hoops to warrant meeting those kinds of "needs". The goal posts are always moving, at the refuser's command, just a little further back.


Return to “Pornography”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users