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RABBIT! From - Why do you look at porn?

Postby Paul B » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:04 am

So far no one has said "My wife is not woman enough for me."

Not that I expected anyone to say that - or feel that way. But I hear over and over from wives that this is what their husband's porn use communicates to them.

So the message to women is he's looking at porn because he thinks you're ugly. And the message to men is your porn use makes her believe you think she is ugly.
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Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:21 pm

Not just ugly... it says loud and clear to the wife that to him, she is not worth upholding his marriage vows to... "I do solemnly swear to keep myself only to her as long as we both shall live."
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby jokerman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:39 pm

Well if we're going to go that route, I would suggest the workaholic wife is also breaking her vows -- putting her time, energy and affections somewhere else beside investing in the marriage.

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Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:35 pm

Jokerman, while things that detract from the marriage are a problem, the way you are taking it doesn't work for me. I have always believed 'keeping ourselves' meant in an intimate sense.... definitely sexual in nature. When I discovered my husband's porn use, that was one of the first things that went through my mind. You don't have to agree, I didn't expect the men to necessarily. The whole premise of my comment was the message it sends to a woman.
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Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:31 pm

Well, you can take the however you want, however these responses effectively minimizes what it means to me, as a woman. There is no comparison between bad time management and adultery. Thankfully my husband didn't try that logic in me, because it wouldn't have gone over well.

It's exactly the same as Paul's description.... to a woman her husband looking at porn is clearly sending a message that she's ugly, not worthy. While a man says it has nothing to do with that. I see my marriage vows as a promise to abstain from adultery. Sure the other things are important, but THAT is not what I was thinking about when I said 'I do".
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Why do you look at porn?

Postby Learning1 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:48 pm

jokerman wrote:Well if we're going to go that route, I would suggest the workaholic wife is also breaking her vows -- putting her time, energy and affections somewhere else beside investing in the marriage.


Chronic porn use (including reading erotic fantasy porny type romance novels) is not the same as being a workaholic and the sex of the spouse does not matter.

Work, demanding jobs, long commutes, being away due to work and workaholism all can and do negativity impact a marriage. But comparing it to sins of a sexual nature, does not compute.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby SeekingChange » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:55 pm

Are you ladies saying you have NEVER imagined yourself with another man, whether sexually or what it would be like to be married to him? If so, I am totally in awe of the self-control you have over your mind. Me personally, I know from Jesus' words, that I have been adulterer at heart, and that is enough to keep me from ever "throwing stones" at my husband in this area. I have been far from a perfect wife, but this is one area grace has reigned.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Learning1 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:05 pm

^^^^

Nobody is throwing stones on this thread. People have been expressing opinions, differences of opinions, feelings and various life experiences that have led to hurt in their marriage.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:13 pm

SC, I was speaking to how it feels to a woman when her husband looks at porn. It has nothing to do with throwing stones. My own guilt in any other area does not effect how it FEELS to know my husband brought images of filth into our bed. I was under the impression we were discussing porn and it's reasons and effects... if I was the sort who was into throwing stones, I'd be divorced right now.
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Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:21 pm

Learning1 wrote:
Work, demanding jobs, long commutes, being away due to work and workaholism all can and do negativity impact a marriage. But comparing it to sins of a sexual nature, does not compute.

Doug-h wrote:I don't think he equated the two so much as saying resulting hurt is very much the same. That was, after all, the point that Cayenne made.


Doug, I'm not sure what point you think I made, however I must categorically disagree that the hurt is much the same. I am married to a man who by his very nature goes out of his way for everyone. His reputation at work is that 'if you want it done, you ask ____". It doesn't matter if he's in his car after working a 14 hr day, if someone calls him for something he will go back and take care of it, no matter how long it takes. That means that for 21 years, if I have plans for us, they must wait. Before kids, we commuted together, and that meant some nights (3+ a week) I sat in my office clocked out for 2, even 3 hours waiting for him to take me home. Now that I'm home with the kids, I never know if he will make it for supper. I can have the car packed for a vacation where we must leave by a certain time to get somewhere before midnight, and he will be 4 hours late. When we go camping, we almost always set up in the dark. I know exactly how it feels to have someone who doesn't know how to prioritize his time to make his family first.

The pain of his porn use was 1000 times worse.
Last edited by Cayenne on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby poetess » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:34 pm

You know, I'm not sure we can have it both ways, that refusal/gatekeeping are uniquely harmful to the marriage bed, because anyone can clean your house or make dinner but you can only righteously have sex with one person . . . but sexual sin in the guise of pornography is not uniquely harmful to the marriage.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby SeekingChange » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:35 pm

I wasn't saying you guys were "throwing stones". And, I know this is off topic a little and maybe it should be moved, but neither of you answered my question, and I really am curious...not for judgement sake but for learning and understanding. I am wondering if people view a difference between one set of "adultery" claims from another?
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:10 pm

doug-h wrote:I do understand that Cayenne. Nobody is trying to say that your feelings are invalid.


Too late.

I've read enough to know that while there are exceptions, I am not unique to view sexual sin (adultery, porn, refusal, etc) as much more seriously damaging to a marriage than other domestic sins. I unfortunately know a lot of divorced people, and almost all cite sexual sin as the ultimate demise of the marriage, the sin they could not get over. I've yet to personally know anyone divorced because of coming home late from work, although I'm sure it exists. The very act comparing of something so deeply damaging as sexual sin with other categories is invalidating the seriousness of the trauma it causes. IMO.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Learning1 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:35 am

poetess wrote:You know, I'm not sure we can have it both ways, that refusal/gatekeeping are uniquely harmful to the marriage bed, because anyone can clean your house or make dinner but you can only righteously have sex with one person . . . but sexual sin in the guise of pornography is not uniquely harmful to the marriage.


Have what both ways ?

I believe sexual sin in marriage, be it chronic habitual porn use/ reading porny erotica, chronic habitual refusal is far more harmful than demanding jobs, long commutes, being away due to work and workaholism.

My DH has a demanding job. He broods over it and brings the stress of it to our home it impacts and hurts our marriage. But if he would tell me he has been habitually looking at porn, reading trash, or if he became a chronic refuser, it would hurt me in a greater way and be more difficult to heal for me. Your mileage may vary.

By chronic refuser I don't mean, he gets home from work and wants a home cooked meal, than wants to sleep and have sex in the AM, when I want to have sex right when he get home. That is not refusal. An occasional no, is not sin or sexual refusal.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby poetess » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:07 am

Learning, we're saying the same thing. I was agreeing that if sexual sin is worse in one area, then of course it's worse in other areas, too. One cannot say "Sexual refusal is the worst sin ever since sex is so important to marriage!" and then turn around and say "Porn is no worse than a spouse being distracted by other kinds of distractions!" (I'm not quoting any specific person with either of these quotes.) If the distraction = no time for sex, then there is a point . . . but porn or another kind of adultery still (often) offers the double whammy of not wanting sex with one's spouse but getting it with someone else instead. Porn would still, in such instances, be worse than a spouse being too busy and too tired for sex, because it's having sex with someone else instead (in a woman's mind and in the biblical sense of lusting being adultery).

It has been debated on here whether porn (the sin of commission) is worse than refusal (the sin of omission). I can't speak to that for other people, though I know that for myself porn would be a worse betrayal.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby SeekingChange » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:33 am

As a "chief of sinners" in this area, I believe we should all (those participating and those just reading) remember this caution.... just as Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount would say, "You have heard it said... but I tell you....", and him bringing it to the heart to reveal all are sinners and what's inside is just as sinful as what is outward. When we start comparing how one's sin is worse than ours, that's when love, grace, mercy and forgiveness fly out the window. It doesn't negate the hurt or pain it's caused, but we shouldn't forget how somewhere, somehow our actions have done the same to another, even if against God alone, the worst offense in it all. And yet, God's love never wavered if we are a child of God, we have been given grace, mercy and forgiveness. The least we can do is treat our brothers and sister the same, especially if we call them 'husband' or 'wife'.
God can change what people do, behavioral patterns that have been in play for decades. He can change what we do to cope, find comfort, survive conflict, to count. Rahab had done a same old thing for years...then she did something new.

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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Drob » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:48 am

The Bible says "for ALL have sinned and fallen short" so why do we try and classify what is a worse sin. Unless you've walked in another person's shoes and felt their despair how can you know what caused them to fall. I seem to recall in the Bible it was the sexual sins that Jesus showed the most compassion for.

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Why do you look at porn?

Postby Cayenne » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:56 am

It's not about worse sin in the eyes of God, all sin separates us from Him. It's not about whether or not we can or should forgive any kind of sin. It IS about how damaging sexual sin is to the marriage bed. If sexual sin was no more damaging than tardiness, this forum would not need to exist. You can't tell me getting home late from work is equally as painful as having your child murdered. So obviously there is room for discussion without minimizing the seriousness of all sin.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Paul B » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:39 am

Cayenne wrote:Not just ugly... it says loud and clear to the wife that to him, she is not worth upholding his marriage vows to... "I do solemnly swear to keep myself only to her as long as we both shall live."

Yup, this is the normal reaction for a woman. Most men, as you suggest in another post, don't see it that way. This creates a difficult situation. If he didn't intend what she feels what is reality?

I think both need to understand the reality of the other. He needs to realise she will feel this way no matter what he did or did not intend. She needs to realise it's not what he intended no matter what she feels.
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Re: Why do you look at porn?

Postby Paul B » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:44 am

Cayenne wrote:Jokerman, while things that detract from the marriage are a problem, the way you are taking it doesn't work for me. I have always believed 'keeping ourselves' meant in an intimate sense.... definitely sexual in nature.

I gotta go with Jokerman here. Intimacy is way more than sex. I've heard people call their spouse's hobby or job "the other women/man". I will never forget the women who cried as she told us her husband loved his bass boat more than he loved her.
Cayenne wrote:Well, you can take the however you want, however, these responses effectively minimizes what it means to me, as a woman. There is no comparison between bad time management and adultery.

We're not talking about bad time management, we're talking about using other things to avoid being the spouse you promised to be. The fact that some ways of doing that are worse than others does not make any of them okay.

I'm not disagreeing with you on porn, I get how horrible and destructive it is - and I realise many men don't get that. But there are many non-sexual things that can hurt, cripple, or destroy a marriage.
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