Married men and porn

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...

Men - in the last 3 months, have you willingly sought or viewed porn?

I have not viewed any porn.
204
18%
I have slipped a few times. My wife knows.
132
12%
I have slipped a few times. My wife does not know.
207
18%
I have slipped many times. My wife knows.
106
9%
I have slipped many times. My wife does not know.
148
13%
I am addicted. My wife knows.
96
9%
I am addicted. My wife does not know.
67
6%
I look at porn, but I don't think it's wrong. My wife knows.
50
4%
I look at porn, but I don't think it's wrong. My wife does not know.
33
3%
My wife and I look at it together occasionally.
62
5%
My wife and I look at it together regularly.
23
2%
 
Total votes: 1128

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Mon May 31, 2010 7:21 pm

PS56 wrote:
Leah in Mid-South wrote:So now it's "educational?" Okay. It seems to me hen one spouse is being refused, that a "couple" would not need "education" about "positions." What they would "need" is a "counselor."

Leah, I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Are you following the discussion? :? We're talking about whether the use of porn in some instances might be educational and nots selfish. We're not talking about refusal.


Then I'm really not sure where this came from:

PS wrote:No, but I think the point luvinher is making relates to the motivation for the conduct, not whether it is a sin or not, and I also don't see him as saying that selfishness is never involved. Clearly it is, and maybe it is the vast majority of the time. But I think the notion that porn use is entirely selfish (in the sense that one is entirely ignoring the needs of the other spouse) would be refuted to some extent, maybe entirely, when use is related to refusal by the other spouse. In that case, it isn't an option to forego the porn use and spend more time learning "how to" please the spouse, as someone else suggested. The other spouse isn't available for "how to." But again, that does not mean the use of porn in such circumstances is not a sin.


I'm really tired of all the talking in circles. Honest people own their stuff. If they like the porn, it's totally their business to do it and tell the truth about it. The blaming and the redefinition and the sneaking and the defending and the hiding and the defrauding and the depriving are selfish and dishonest. And lazy.

People who prefer porn to relationships should just say so and let that be it.
Leah

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Mon May 31, 2010 7:25 pm

PS56 wrote:
mamame wrote:wikipedia is your example? I'm looking for an example of how pornography can be education and not lazy/selfish/sinful.

I think you might have changed the question a little bit by asking for an example that is not "lazy/selfish/sinful," because that covers a lot of ground, and I thought that luvinher was talking about instances when it might not be selfish, and could be educational. What if a husband and wife and are having difficulty with a certain position and one or the both of them look at a video or some explicit pictures that show a couple using that position so they can see what they are doing wrong? Would that be an example of a use of porn that is educational and not selfish?


There are enough resources out there that a couple, or an individual, doesn't have to use porn to educate themselves on positioning or anything else. TMB would be a case in point.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 7:38 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:Then I'm really not sure where this came from:

PS wrote:No, but I think the point luvinher is making relates to the motivation for the conduct, not whether it is a sin or not, and I also don't see him as saying that selfishness is never involved. Clearly it is, and maybe it is the vast majority of the time. But I think the notion that porn use is entirely selfish (in the sense that one is entirely ignoring the needs of the other spouse) would be refuted to some extent, maybe entirely, when use is related to refusal by the other spouse. In that case, it isn't an option to forego the porn use and spend more time learning "how to" please the spouse, as someone else suggested. The other spouse isn't available for "how to." But again, that does not mean the use of porn in such circumstances is not a sin.

That was a different discussion. It's sort of like we're at a cocktail party and you left the room for awhile and came back and thought we were talking about the same thing.

Leah in Mid-South wrote:I'm really tired of all the talking in circles. Honest people own their stuff. If they like the porn, it's totally their business to do it and tell the truth about it. The blaming and the redefinition and the sneaking and the defending and the hiding and the defrauding and the depriving are selfish and dishonest. And lazy.

People who prefer porn to relationships should just say so and let that be it.

Are you referring to me, or something I said? Or are your referring to your husband and personalizing the issue again when we're all having a more general or hypothetical discussion? I can't follow you at all. Honestly, it's becoming impossible to have a conversation with you.
Last edited by PS56 on Mon May 31, 2010 7:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 7:41 pm

Seekryt wrote:
PS56 wrote:
mamame wrote:wikipedia is your example? I'm looking for an example of how pornography can be education and not lazy/selfish/sinful.

I think you might have changed the question a little bit by asking for an example that is not "lazy/selfish/sinful," because that covers a lot of ground, and I thought that luvinher was talking about instances when it might not be selfish, and could be educational. What if a husband and wife and are having difficulty with a certain position and one or the both of them look at a video or some explicit pictures that show a couple using that position so they can see what they are doing wrong? Would that be an example of a use of porn that is educational and not selfish?


There are enough resources out there that a couple, or an individual, doesn't have to use porn to educate themselves on positioning or anything else. TMB would be a case in point.

Yes, that is true (although other resources may not be as efficient in terms of education). However, assuming the other resources are just as adequate, doesn't that really just go to whether there are better alternatives than using porn, and not to the issue of whether the use of porn is educational and not selfish? People do the wrong things with the right motive lots of times.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Mon May 31, 2010 7:52 pm

PS56 wrote:Are you referring to me, or something I said?


Yes, in a way, I am. I can be honest enough to say that. I feel that there is some sort of attempt to say that a refused spouse has a justifiable reason to act out to pornography. If I am not understanding you correctly, then please set me straight.

I do not ever think is okay, and I think I would have biblical support to say that one sin does not justify another, nor should a wrong done by one spouse be repaid with wrong by the other spouse. If it's refusal, it's not okay. If it's refusal, it's not educational. If there is a need for education, porn is a) fantasy b) grossly exaggerated c) not educational in its intent. There are better choices to make if education is a goal.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Mon May 31, 2010 8:04 pm

PS56, I'll direct you back a page or two, to one of the comments that orignially re-sparked this discussion:

luvinher wrote:True there is some undisovered levels of selfishness there, I'm just pointing out what these numbers might show. And consider, 2/3 of that 30% were participating in the viewing of adult materials.

Regardless, in a battle of selfishness, I do not think married women come off cleanly. If we just posit that Paul said that LD women must raise sexual intimacy to HD men's level, then we know there are plenty of non-obeying married women.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 8:12 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:
PS56 wrote:Are you referring to me, or something I said?

Yes, in a way, I am. I can be honest enough to say that. I feel that there is some sort of attempt to say that a refused spouse has a justifiable reason to act out to pornography. If I am not understanding you correctly, then please set me straight.

I do not ever think is okay, and I think I would have biblical support to say that one sin does not justify another, nor should a wrong done by one spouse be repaid with wrong by the other spouse. If it's refusal, it's not okay. If it's refusal, it's not educational. If there is a need for education, porn is a) fantasy b) grossly exaggerated c) not educational in its intent. There are better choices to make if education is a goal.

Let me see if I can summarize what I said, and am saying. I'll paraphrase or simplify some of the points made by others, just for purposes of brevity (and forgive me folks if I do not perfectly capture some previous comments).

First, it was suggested earlier that the use of porn is always selfish, and the underlying reason that was advanced in support of this proposition was that husbands should be spending their time learning how to please their wives, and failing to do so and instead pursuing porn was selfish. My point, in response to that proposition was that, if a wife refuses to have sex with her husband, and the husband turns to porn for release, it's not really fair to suggest that he is being selfish and that he should be learning to please his wife. That is not really a practical option. Does that mean his use of porn is justifiable (to God) and not sinful? NO! NO! NO! And I have never said otherwise. But it is useful, I think, to know WHY people sin in this area, because, among other things, it can help prevent the sin and help others recover. In addition, I think this is a scenario in which one could argue that the use of porn is not entirely selfish, notwithstanding that it is sinful.

*Note: This doesn't mean that any husbands (or most husbands) who are using porn are doing so because of refusal.

Second, after the discussion evolved somewhat, someone made the point that porn is never educational. I suggested a hypothetical situation in which it might be educational, just trying to raise the issue for discussion. This second point is entirely different from the refusal point discussed above. Is it a sin to look at porn for an entirely educational purpose, notwithstanding that there might be other resources that supposedly are not pornographic? That's a tougher issue for me and I'm not sure how I come down on it yet. I think it's a tougher question because it depends on what resources one would consider to be pornographic, what resources one would consider to be non-pornographic, and the heart of the person seeking education. And, as I said above, if the issue is whether something that many would describe as "pornographic" can be educational in certain instances, the fact that there may be "better" resources, non-pornographic resources, or less pornographic resources, is a separate issue to some extent than whether the use of a pornographic resource is "educational" (and not "selfish").

I hope this is helpful. My gosh, this is exhausting. :D
Last edited by PS56 on Mon May 31, 2010 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 8:38 pm

A few additional comments on what you said above, somewhat separate from the previous issues.

Leah in Mid-South wrote:I do not ever think is okay, and I think I would have biblical support to say that one sin does not justify another, nor should a wrong done by one spouse be repaid with wrong by the other spouse.

That's true, but I think that it is important to understand how a sin by one spouse can cause the other spouse to sin. See 1 Cor. 7. There are probably other good examples. That doesn't excuse the second sin. But we are human, and our sinful nature sometimes causes us to sin in response to a wrong by the other spouse. Do I need to say again that this doesn't make it right or excusable?

Leah in Mid-South wrote: If there is a need for education, porn is a) fantasy b) grossly exaggerated c) not educational in its intent. There are better choices to make if education is a goal.

If one looks at porn to learn something about a position, for example, then I think your points a), b) and c) really don't apply at all. Again, that doesn't mean it's the best option.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Mon May 31, 2010 8:58 pm

PS56 wrote:First, it was suggested earlier that the use of porn is always selfish, and the underlying reason that was advanced in support of this proposition was that husbands should be spending their time learning how to please their wives, and failing to do so and instead pursuing porn was selfish. My point, in response to that proposition was that, if a wife refuses to have sex with her husband, and the husband turns to porn for release, it's not really fair to suggest that he is being selfish and that he should be learning to please his wife. That is not really a practical option. Does that mean his use of porn is justifiable (to God) and not sinful? NO! NO! NO! And I have never said otherwise. But it is useful, I think, to know WHY people sin in this area, because, among other things, it can help prevent the sin and help others recover. In addition, I think this is a scenario in which one could argue that the use of porn is not entirely selfish, notwithstanding that it is sinful.


That is more clear. Thank you. I was not the one who suggested that a refused husband should be spending time learning how to please his wife. To be relevant to this particular segment of the conversation, there were three women whose husbands were choosing porn over willing wives. That is the reason it was called selfish (by all three of us) and lazy (by me). The response (not by you) was that women were emotional and it was too hard.<-------That, right there, is insulting. I think I can speak for the three of us (the refused wives) and say that we feel most men are not such simpletons and we have more respect than to think most men would not be able to connect on more than a purely physical level.

PS56 wrote:*Note: This doesn't mean that any husbands (or most husbands) who are using porn are doing so because of refusal.
Thank you.

PS56 wrote:Second, after the discussion evolved somewhat, someone made the point that porn is never educational. I suggested a hypothetical situation in which it might be educational, just trying to raise the issue for discussion. This second point is entirely different from the refusal point discussed above. Is it a sin to look at porn for an entirely educational purpose, notwithstanding that there might be other resources that supposedly are not pornographic? That's a tougher issue for me and I'm not sure how I come down on it yet. I think it's a tougher question because it depends on what resources one would consider to be pornographic, what resources one would consider to be non-pornographic, and the heart of the person seeking education. And, as I said above, if the issue is whether porn can be educational in certain instances, the fact that there may be "better" resources, non-pornographic resources, or less pornographic resources, is a separate issue to some extent than whether the use of a pornographic resource is "educational" (and not "selfish").


I think it might be helpful to describe pornography as "recreational sexually explicit material." That would be a good working definition for what I think the three (refused wives) of us mean. Again, speaking for the three of us, we are referring to photographic images with exaggerated, um, body parts and, um, numbers of people, and, um maybe violence or force, and really silly names. There is no question that this material would not be educational in any sense. I think it would be safe to say that the three of us have experienced harm from this sort of thing.

There is educational material available that might use artistic renderings--wooden abstract figures or line drawings--that are truly focused on teaching or demonstrating technique. I consider that to be educational, and some people might have a problem even with that. In that case, it might be better to use a professional sex therapist or something without illustration in a controlled setting.

PS56 wrote:I hope this is helpful. My gosh, this is exhausting. :D


Yes, it is. And it is worthwhile to have understanding, and resolution (I hope).

I see you have posted again. I'm going to go ahead and submit and read what you have added.
Last edited by Leah on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 9:19 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote: I think it might be helpful to describe pornography as "recreational sexually explicit material." That would be a good working definition for what I think the three (refused wives) of us mean. Again, speaking for the three of us, we are referring to photographic images with exaggerated, um, body parts and, um, numbers of people, and, um maybe violence or force, and really silly names.

I think that this is a somewhat exaggerated, and limited, view of the type of porn that is available. There is a lots of porn that doesn't involve exaggerated body parts, or more than two people, and much of it doesn't involve violence or force. Some of it, indeed quite a lot of it nowadays, involves couples who are married or committed to one another, and who are just having typical normal sex of the type that we frequently discuss on this board. Not all porn (by any means) is bizarre or unusual or exaggerated.

Please understand that I'm not saying it is permissible or acceptable, or not porn; nor am I attempting to justify it's use. I'm just trying to explain that a lot of it is different than your summary of it above, and this also explains perhaps why it is such a problem, as many men (perhaps especially many Christian men) probably succumb who aren't attracted to the stuff you describe. In other words, the more "normal" it is made to appear, the more tempting it may become. Satan knows exactly how to get to us. But it also may explain why I think some of it may potentially be "educational," even though there are better ways to get educated.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 9:31 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote: To be relevant to this particular segment of the conversation, there were three [men] who were choosing porn over willing wives. That is the reason it was called selfish (by all three of us) and lazy (by me).

I think you mean to say "three men." And I agree 100% with your point in this regard.

luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Mon May 31, 2010 11:15 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:That is the reason it was called selfish (by all three of us) and lazy (by me). The response (not by you) was that women were emotional and it was too hard.<-------That, right there, is insulting.


I responded to Seekryt's post on page 11. I have no idea if she is a refused wife - I didn't think so. I imagine people post in general terms around here, unless they say "I am the exception" or whatever. My recent posts began with reviewing joint porn usage or knowledge and not meant to target out refused wives at all.

To wrap this up, from the poll, there are 69 men who do not think porn viewing is wrong, so really perhaps questions can be directed their way in stead of mine.

And of the 75 couples who jointly view porn, perhaps those 75 women can answer Seekryt as to whether they or the H are being selfish through their "porn" choice.

Good night. :)

Eta: fixed a double negative.
Last edited by luvinher on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:52 am

PS56 wrote:
Leah in Mid-South wrote: To be relevant to this particular segment of the conversation, there were three [men] who were choosing porn over willing wives. That is the reason it was called selfish (by all three of us) and lazy (by me).

I think you mean to say "three men." And I agree 100% with your point in this regard.


I did it that way so that it would be clear I was talking about men, not people, and three specific men--the spouses of the three most recent women who posted.

And just to beat a dead horse a little more, I'm not really sure this poll has any statistical value. It's been going on over a fairly long time frame. There are no controls except the participant's word that they are 1) Christian, 2) married, and 3) telling the truth. I think any statistical analysis that could be drawn from it probably doesn't prove anything.

Have a good day now.
Leah

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:21 am

luvinher wrote:
Leah in Mid-South wrote:That is the reason it was called selfish (by all three of us) and lazy (by me). The response (not by you) was that women were emotional and it was too hard.<-------That, right there, is insulting.


I responded to Seekryt's post on page 11. I have no idea if she is a refused wife - I didn't think so. I imagine people post in general terms around here, unless they say "I am the exception" or whatever. My recent posts began with reviewing joint porn usage or knowledge and not meant to target out refused wives at all.


My husband is a porn addict in recovery. Yes, I've been a refused wife, and we still go through phases of it.

[/quote]To wrap this up, from the poll, there are 69 men who do not think porn viewing is not wrong, so really perhaps questions can be directed their way in stead of mine.

And of the 75 couples who jointly view porn, perhaps those 75 women can answer Seekryt as to whether they or the H are being selfish through their "porn" choice.

[/quote]

No need. I was one of those wives. I certainly can't speak for all of them, but I've been around the block enough times that I'm aware of the general attitude.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:32 am

Leah in Mid-South wrote:I did it that way so that it would be clear I was talking about men, not people, and three specific men--the spouses of the three most recent women who posted.

What I meant was, if you look at your earlier post, you said there were "three women who were choosing porn over willing wives." That's a whole other thread. :lol:

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:10 am

PS56 wrote:
Leah in Mid-South wrote:I did it that way so that it would be clear I was talking about men, not people, and three specific men--the spouses of the three most recent women who posted.

What I meant was, if you look at your earlier post, you said there were "three women who were choosing porn over willing wives." That's a whole other thread. :lol:


It is now corrected. What I meant was three women whose husbands are choosing...
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby jokerman » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:35 pm

Porn is selfish, but its much more than that. To simply tell someone that their behavior (whether they abuse alcohol or surf the Internet) is selfish and they need to stop now -- and to go no deeper -- solves nothing. People often turn to booze, food, drugs and porn as ways of medicating something, because they can't manage life in some way. This problem needs to be addressed at multiple levels -- not only recognizing the people you've hurt and repenting for that, but also looking at what hurts and fears triggered it in the first place. The second step of introspection is much harder to do.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:40 pm

I agree completely that for any spouse to use porn and thereby not give to the other spouse what is due them in the marriage relationship is indeed selfish, in addition to being sinful.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:54 pm

jokerman wrote:Porn is selfish, but its much more than that. To simply tell someone that their behavior (whether they abuse alcohol or surf the Internet) is selfish and they need to stop now -- and to go no deeper -- solves nothing. People often turn to booze, food, drugs and porn as ways of medicating something, because they can't manage life in some way. This problem needs to be addressed at multiple levels -- not only recognizing the people you've hurt and repenting for that, but also looking at what hurts and fears triggered it in the first place. The second step of introspection is much harder to do.


I hear what you're saying, believe me. I entered my marriage with a truckload of baggage and it has been a painful process to unpack it all. My husband hasn't caused all the pain I've ever experienced, and it's a very difficult thing not to want to place all the blame on him. It is more difficult that he has chosen not to deal with his stuff and jointly with the stuff we've created since then.

Thank you for bringing up the hidden issues that lead to unhealthy behavior. It's always important to remember. It takes a lot of courage to face the things inside.
Leah

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:30 pm

backsideof40 wrote:I honestly think this is alot of my DH's issues...he can't let down his guard and truly be intimate with me.
* * *
Although he is giving in bed, he doesn't give me himself. Does that make sense.

Absolutely. I have struggled with this myself for a long time, and I have caused myself a lot of pain because of my difficulties opening up to my DW and learning how to be intimate with her. And at times in the past, this pushed me to other things. Learning now to "let down my guard" and open up to her is a long-term process, and I'm not all the way there yet. But the struggle has caused me pain and heartache. Sometimes we don't understand that men are fragile human beings also, with surprisingly fragile psyches. And sometimes, the inability of men to give themselves completely relates to something in their past that we may not readily identify or fully comprehend. So there is often pain involved on both sides of these issues.

I once heard a pastor speak about what he thought Jesus would say to Dennis Rodman, who most people think is a jerk. The pastor spoke for some time about some of the difficulties Rodman had experienced in his life and the pain he endured as a youngster that might have made him the way he is. He didn't excuse a lot of his conduct, but It was an interesting and different point of view, and he suggest, quite correctly I think, that Jesus would say some different things than we would.

Anyway, as I said, there is pain on both sides of these issues, and I think it is helpful to try to understand some of the root causes of these sins. I know it has helped me heal.


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