Married men and porn

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...

Men - in the last 3 months, have you willingly sought or viewed porn?

I have not viewed any porn.
205
18%
I have slipped a few times. My wife knows.
132
12%
I have slipped a few times. My wife does not know.
207
18%
I have slipped many times. My wife knows.
106
9%
I have slipped many times. My wife does not know.
148
13%
I am addicted. My wife knows.
96
9%
I am addicted. My wife does not know.
67
6%
I look at porn, but I don't think it's wrong. My wife knows.
50
4%
I look at porn, but I don't think it's wrong. My wife does not know.
33
3%
My wife and I look at it together occasionally.
62
5%
My wife and I look at it together regularly.
23
2%
 
Total votes: 1129

luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Sun May 30, 2010 7:59 pm

Seekryt wrote:Yes, I am female, and yes I believe that even MUTAL viewing of porn is lazy and selfish. It's fast food sex which requires no relationship. I fail to see how my the credibility of my POV depends on my gender, though. Would my viewpoint have more credibility if I had a penis?


Possibly there would be more understanding of sexual release w/o a large component of emotional involvement. The mutual viewing that was mentioned in the suvery sounds ipso facto not selfish, so your assertion is a bit intriguing. As covered previously I believe it comes with a higher desire for emotional bond that comes from a feminine perspective. Some couples use alcohol or drugs together to boost their periods of intimacy. Some couples have the wife use a vibrator. Saying they are "lazy" to use those aids sounds like a condemnation, doesn't it? Some people drive a car instead of walking everywhere. At some point these things just become choices.

What exactly do "men's different libido and relationship styles" have to do with the laziness and selfishness of porn?

That comment probably wasn't directed at your statement about laziness and selfishness.

Is there a case that you can think of where it's generous and selfless to view porn? I'm all ears.


Hmmm. I wasn't trying to defend using adult materials, but I can imagine there might be some educational value for certain people. I think there might be some other legitimate uses for people who have gotten clearance in their doctrine for such things.

I'll point out that ANYONE who has orgasms accompanied by porn use is going to be damaging the overall marriage, particularly if that's where they're getting 80% of them. If you're talking about solo MB with no porn, certainly, that's sad, but it doesn't really belong in this discussion.


Well yes. Now it could be some men view adult materials and don't orgasm, so that would be within this thread's topic. As to masturbating and not viewing adult materials, I was just pointing that out as a general statement, but I agree it's offtopic.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Sun May 30, 2010 8:26 pm

You know, somehow God thought it was a good idea for men and women to get together, be married, and have sex. If a man chooses porn because his wife wants to bond, then it sounds to me like the man is choosing his own way over God's. The man is told to leave father and mother and cleave to his wife. That sounds like a command to me.

Porn and refusal because a man can't be bothered to care for a wife he chose? Really?
Leah

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby mamame » Mon May 31, 2010 7:44 am

luvinher wrote:Hmmm. I wasn't trying to defend using adult materials, but I can imagine there might be some educational value for certain people. I think there might be some other legitimate uses for people who have gotten clearance in their doctrine for such things.


I actually love playing this logic game and I'm open to thinking about what uses might be.

We can quickly get into the issue of discussing what is porn and what isn't, which will just throw us off track. For the purposes of this discussion, lets stick to commonly recognized graphic/visual pornography. Maybe we can have some separate conversations about other things that might fall into that category.

luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Mon May 31, 2010 11:18 am

2 things:

1st point, is on educational aspects of graphic images. Even wikipedia has something like 70 images of vulvas, where half or more are shaved. I would grant some men (perhaps some women) could gain needed information which would bless their marriage bed. However, one could rightly ask whether viewing such images is a matter of conscience or not. I believe you would get differing opinions on this.

2nd point: Many/Most people in Christiandom hold "porn" as always sinful, thought they may allow police officers to view it as part of their jobs and not call that sinful. But in general, we would say that those Christians have doctrine which propels them to conclude "all" "porn" is sinful. But I did hold an option out for those Christians who have differing doctrine which allows for certain "porn" not be sinful. It was in that category that I mentioned "certain uses."

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby mamame » Mon May 31, 2010 11:42 am

1. I don't consider wikipedia porn, and I don't feel it's the intent of this thread.

2. Why do police officers have to look at porn?

luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Mon May 31, 2010 1:47 pm

Re Police - I think back to the 70's when x rated video moviehouses had cops in the audience and then raids were held and the movie reels taken, due to the videos being thought to be obscene for those communities (and of course trials followed). Today, I think the obscenity parameters are the same but there is little enforcement. Of course, maybe what is obscene for a community has changed over the decades. As to community standards, I would expect police and prosecutors in Alabama could find "more" obscene material versus California police and prosecutors. You would think some town somewhere would impose a giant internet "porn" filter on the town's cable or dsl franchises. However, in considering whether to fight losing legal battles, maybe many towns don't want to bother.

In looking at obscenity rulings, wikipedia has information on the Miller test and then implications in the internet age. Here is a link for the case against one such distributor and where Postal Inspectors in approx. 2003 were viewing scenes and ordering movies to gather evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_tes ... ternet_age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... Associates

For Christian Postal Inspectors, the point would be whether they could nonsinfully view the explicit materials. I would say it would be helpful for them if their doctrine allowed that, but if not, then some framework of "greater good" or "obeying the authorites above you" might be used.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Mon May 31, 2010 3:17 pm

luvinher, I'm just going to point out that your last several posts are traipsing down the bunny trail, so in order to keep from all of us following down that path, I'm not going to address them. This is a thread about married men and porn, not about whether a professional or anyone else can view pornographic material without sinning.

I assume we can all agree that for the purposes of this thread, and this discussion, porn is something used by an individual and/or couple in order to incite lust.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Mon May 31, 2010 3:28 pm

luvinher wrote:
Seekryt wrote:Yes, I am female, and yes I believe that even MUTAL viewing of porn is lazy and selfish. It's fast food sex which requires no relationship. I fail to see how my the credibility of my POV depends on my gender, though. Would my viewpoint have more credibility if I had a penis?


Possibly there would be more understanding of sexual release w/o a large component of emotional involvement.


I'm going to suggest that within marriage, sexual release and contact should always involve emotion and relationship

The mutual viewing that was mentioned in the suvery sounds ipso facto not selfish, so your assertion is a bit intriguing.


I disagree that the use of the term "mutual" in any way suggests that the activity is not selfish. Just because a couple agrees to view porn together does not mean that they are slefless or making any sort of relational effort. My point is that even though it's mutual, it's still selfish and lazy. Sexual contact without emotional connection, using outside stimuli in order to manufacture sexual feelings, is both.

As covered previously I believe it comes with a higher desire for emotional bond that comes from a feminine perspective.


I take exception to that. Marriage automatically involves relationship, which includes emotional as well as physical intimacy. This is not my "feminine perspective". Men need emotional connection just as much as women do.

Some couples use alcohol or drugs together to boost their periods of intimacy. Some couples have the wife use a vibrator. Saying they are "lazy" to use those aids sounds like a condemnation, doesn't it? Some people drive a car instead of walking everywhere. At some point these things just become choices.


i'm not in any way being condemnatory. I'm stating my opinion and from my experience. I also fail to see the connection that you're making between non-sinful and sinful activities. Driving a car vs walking is not comparable to using porn for arousal vs not using porn.

Is there a case that you can think of where it's generous and selfless to view porn? I'm all ears.


Hmmm. I wasn't trying to defend using adult materials, but I can imagine there might be some educational value for certain people. I think there might be some other legitimate uses for people who have gotten clearance in their doctrine for such things.[/quote]

The question was whether there is any instance where it would be generous and selfless to view porn. It still stands, because it hasn't been answered. I have wracked my brain trying to think of one, but I've come up with nothing.

I'll point out that ANYONE who has orgasms accompanied by porn use is going to be damaging the overall marriage, particularly if that's where they're getting 80% of them. If you're talking about solo MB with no porn, certainly, that's sad, but it doesn't really belong in this discussion.


Well yes. Now it could be some men view adult materials and don't orgasm, so that would be within this thread's topic. As to masturbating and not viewing adult materials, I was just pointing that out as a general statement, but I agree it's offtopic.[/quote]

OK. Even if they're not having an orgasm, they're still looking at it for some reason. If that's to arouse themselves, then it's wrong, it's sin, and they're damaging the marital relationship.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 3:31 pm

Seekryt wrote:I assume we can all agree that for the purposes of this thread, and this discussion, porn is something used by an individual and/or couple in order to incite lust.

That's probably true most of the time, but not always. Maybe a better definition would be "Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal."

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Mon May 31, 2010 3:39 pm

PS56 wrote:
Seekryt wrote:I assume we can all agree that for the purposes of this thread, and this discussion, porn is something used by an individual and/or couple in order to incite lust.

That's probably true most of the time, but not always. Maybe a better definition would be "Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal."


Sure. Although I'll point out that I'm pretty sure the Sears catalogue isn't meant to incite lust, but it does for some anyway.
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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 4:04 pm

Seekryt wrote:Sure. Although I'll point out that I'm pretty sure the Sears catalogue isn't meant to incite lust, but it does for some anyway.

Hey, those Craftsman tools are sexy! :D

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Seekryt » Mon May 31, 2010 4:25 pm

PS56 wrote:
Seekryt wrote:Sure. Although I'll point out that I'm pretty sure the Sears catalogue isn't meant to incite lust, but it does for some anyway.

Hey, those Craftsman tools are sexy! :D


I'll agree to that too.

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luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Mon May 31, 2010 4:31 pm

Seekryt wrote:luvinher, I'm just going to point out that your last several posts are traipsing down the bunny trail, so in order to keep from all of us following down that path, I'm not going to address them. This is a thread about married men and porn, not about whether a professional or anyone else can view pornographic material without sinning.


Married professionals may want to know. :P

Well anyway, I agree some of the questions posed to me are off topic, and I'd rather they be in another thread.

Is there a case that you can think of where it's generous and selfless to view porn? I'm all ears.
(And...)
The question was whether there is any instance where it would be generous and selfless to view porn. It still stands, because it hasn't been answered. I have wracked my brain trying to think of one, but I've come up with nothing.


I gave an example of educational purposes.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby mamame » Mon May 31, 2010 4:44 pm

luvinher wrote:I gave an example of educational purposes.


where?

luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Mon May 31, 2010 5:01 pm

On this page, in the wikipedia mention
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=762&start=220#p695866

extrapolate to similar topics/material, but if necessary for clarity, consider female masturbation.

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby mamame » Mon May 31, 2010 5:20 pm

luvinher wrote:On this page, in the wikipedia mention
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=762&start=220#p695866

extrapolate to similar topics/material, but if necessary for clarity, consider female masturbation.


wikipedia is your example? I'm looking for an example of how pornography can be education and not lazy/selfish/sinful.

luvinher

Re: Married men and porn

Postby luvinher » Mon May 31, 2010 5:39 pm

Sigh. I guess a definition of "porn" would have to be gone over. Many people on tmb try to make "porn" have the broadest definition possible. Some people think Cosmo and Maxim are "porn," even television and billboards. Playboy was mentioned just yesterday as "porn." Some include things such as wikipedia illustrations. So you don't, fine. I started there since some people would be shocked to consider such things as either permissible or beneficial. However, the range of opinion on the definition certainly makes discussion difficult.

Sliding a little more liberally over from wikipedia, do you think images/videos of solo masturbation are pornography?

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 5:59 pm

mamame wrote:wikipedia is your example? I'm looking for an example of how pornography can be education and not lazy/selfish/sinful.

I think you might have changed the question a little bit by asking for an example that is not "lazy/selfish/sinful," because that covers a lot of ground, and I thought that luvinher was talking about instances when it might not be selfish, and could be educational. What if a husband and wife and are having difficulty with a certain position and one or the both of them look at a video or some explicit pictures that show a couple using that position so they can see what they are doing wrong? Would that be an example of a use of porn that is educational and not selfish?

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby Leah » Mon May 31, 2010 6:45 pm

So now it's "educational?" Okay. It seems to me when one spouse is being refused, that a "couple" would not need "education" about "positions." What they would "need" is a "counselor."
Leah

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Re: Married men and porn

Postby PS56 » Mon May 31, 2010 6:54 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:So now it's "educational?" Okay. It seems to me hen one spouse is being refused, that a "couple" would not need "education" about "positions." What they would "need" is a "counselor."

Leah, I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Are you following the discussion? :? We're talking about whether the use of porn in some instances might be educational and nots selfish. We're not talking about refusal.


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