Married men and porn

Addiction, wrong expectations, habitual masturbation ...

Men - in the last 3 months, have you willingly sought or viewed porn?

I have not viewed any porn.
205
18%
I have slipped a few times. My wife knows.
132
12%
I have slipped a few times. My wife does not know.
207
18%
I have slipped many times. My wife knows.
106
9%
I have slipped many times. My wife does not know.
149
13%
I am addicted. My wife knows.
97
9%
I am addicted. My wife does not know.
68
6%
I look at porn, but I don't think it's wrong. My wife knows.
50
4%
I look at porn, but I don't think it's wrong. My wife does not know.
33
3%
My wife and I look at it together occasionally.
62
5%
My wife and I look at it together regularly.
23
2%
 
Total votes: 1132

MarkS

Re: "12 Reasons Men View Porn" (and other visual e

Postby MarkS » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:04 pm

eileeninthebr wrote:This extremely long, well thought out list seems to only justify one's sinful pleasures...

If women were to refer to this list as a means to answer pornography questions involving their husbands, I am sure they would feel that they were to "shut up, and bear it, men are just men"

This list pretty much diminishes the need for any mate!

Thank you for your direct response. I especially appreciate that it comes without personal attack. And I appreciate the opportunity to clarify some things I may have left unclear in my original post ("12 Reasons Men View Porn")...

1. I was not seeking to "justify" men's visual sins. And I do not endorse pornography.

Perhaps this got obscured – esp. since this thread has had so many replies – but I was originally (in my long list you quoted) replying to another member’s question:

sunny82 wrote:Pardon me if this sounds like a silly question but I really want to understand....can anyone tell me the real reason that guys view porn?
Obviousely they are aroused by it but is there a deeper underlying reason why :?:

So, I was mainly trying to add to her understanding of why men do such an offensive thing…then to turn it around to show how married women could use that understanding to encourage their husbands.
2. I oppose "objectification" of all sorts – whether treating women as merely sexual creatures (eye candy for men’s fantasies) or treating them as only marginally sexual creatures (e.g., seeing them as mere caregivers, mothers, housekeepers, etc.).

God made women beautiful. God also cautions us about the relative value of physical beauty (Prov. 31). He also protected women by providing “covenant,” under which terms alone a man should have unfettered access.

3. Recognizing that God has made something "good" (in our nature) is NOT an endorsement of a misuse of those good gifts.

God made many things good, which men have misused and even perverted. That does not change their essentially good nature. (For instance, the penis is good. The clitoris is good. But many misuse them. So it is with beauty and visual desire.)

4. Women should NOT just sit back and endure men's failings, but should also not retreat into a "do the opposite of glamour models” approach. This is reactionary and does not do honor to men as God made them (before sin entered the picture).

Merely tolerating that visual nature is not honorable, either. What IS very good is seeking to serve it…just as a man ought to seek to serve his wife’s need for comforting, teasing, progressive and climactic touch.

5. Female beauty should not be abstracted to some “impersonal” thing for men to “use” – but we should all understand that men are attracted even by “female shape” (be it a cartoon or those cheesy mud flaps). It’s like an “icon” for the real thing.

So, for instance, I can appreciate the curve of my wife’s elbow (as I do) AS a beautiful shape, yet I do not reduce her to it. In fact, in the middle of the night, while admiring it – when suddenly I hear the scream of our baby – I get up to change his diaper, recognizing that she, as a mother, needs rest, and I should not selfishlessly admire her beauty to the exclusion of other duties! Appreciating her as a holistic woman (and my own dear wife) must trump my fixation on her graceful elbow. ;)

Self control!

6. It remains true that “Whosoever looks on a woman (not his wife) to lust after her hath committed adultery in his heart.”

While there is debate over whether that means a man may never “appreciate” another woman’s (or cartoon figure’s ) beauty, it must remain strongly in our consciences that another man’s wife is not ours to desire. Jesus Christ expressed that in visual terms, and that seems significant.

7. I believe God made marriage not merely for procreation nor for sexual pleasure...but for companionship (see Jay Adams' good work on the subject).

A man will be unfulfilled and "alone" without a wife. (Of course God ordains exceptions, as the Apostle Paul makes clear.) Airbrushed pictures and mattress-holes will not suffice. Pity the man...

But God also gave us bodies...for touching (and tasting & smelling & hearing) & gazing. AND displaying! Unfortunately, most Christian books spend much time on the "touching," with barely a sentence here and there suggesting that women "leave the lights on occasionally" or "wear something revealing now and then."

8. Once we acknowledge that man’s nature is God-made, we can – rather than running from it – appeal to it properly. Wives don’t need to know every trick in the book to out-perform “loose women.” But they are unwise to try to ignore the nature of men, pretend it doesn’t exist, or despise it.

9. Finally, much as a woman wants to be touched, a man wants to look. When we ask why a man looks at porn, we are not seeking to justify it any more than asking why women let men (who are not their husbands) touch them.

For instance, recognizing that a woman felt emotionally supported by her counselor, and melted into his arms, does not justify her affair with him. Nor does recognizing a woman’s (lesser) retreat into “romance novels” to satiate her need (or fantasy).

In recognizing woman’s nature & needs, we simply understand why & how distortions, misuses & sins emerge. That neither justifies their sin…nor does it render their need (itself) sinful. Women need to be touched. They must seek a proper outlet (and God gives it to them – I Cor. 7). Similarly, men need to be blessed with female beauty. They too must seek a proper outlet. And God gives it to them.

Elsewhere, I have argued that men should spend hours reading, studying, and talking with their wives about her needs. AND practicing meeting them.

In my original post (after writing my long list of reasons men resort to porn), I argued that wives would be wise to do the same – practice meeting their husband’s visual need. To reluctantly appease…or to wear lingerie once or twice a year…or to assume that your husband’s visual needs are completely met by having sex every night is unwise.

Many women who mean well – even many who are extroverted initiators – miss this important point. Yes, a man will generally be flattered and thrilled when you pursue him. But you could pursue him 7 days a week, satisfying his orgasmic desire and his need for intimacy, yet leave him relatively un-touched visually.

This is man, as God created him. Enjoy it, as God intended.

God made woman beautiful on purpose. He made men visual on purpose. He made that work sexually with good reason. Work with it. Play with it. Play up to it!

Mark

P.S. And having the lights on (though a good step) is not enough.
Last edited by MarkS on Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Postby Devoted2Dearling » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:13 pm

MarkS...

Dude! I just can't roll with the universal statements re men and women and their "natural" preferences. I for one am much less stimulated by sight than touch, and I'm a big deep-voiced fella. There are women on this board who are very sight-oriented, so much so that more than a few of them have been tempted / fallen into porn usage.

Much of this male/female stuff we tout as somehow rooted in Scripture really isn't. It is a product of OUR culture, which in case anyone hasn't noticed, is decidedly non-christian in any variety of ways.

The Song of Songs features a man and a woman who look and look and dream of touching, touching, and finally DO touch and touch and eat and drink til they're drunk on one another.

Forget the sexual stereotypes, the learned gender behaviors that get so established (via -- sorry -- a mostly male-dominated, sick culture) that we mistake them as somehow genetic code in our maleness / femaleness respectivey.

Devoted2Wifey, who expects Rush Limbaugh to show up any second and call me a feminazi...
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eileeninthebr

Postby eileeninthebr » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:13 am

devoted2wifey wrote:MarkS...



Much of this male/female stuff we tout as somehow rooted in Scripture really isn't. It is a product of OUR culture, which in case anyone hasn't noticed, is decidedly non-christian in any variety of ways.



AMEN, Brother!

eileeninthebr

Postby eileeninthebr » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:45 am

Okay, guys...
I am (or have been told), that I am a beautiful woman. I have been married for 20+ years, and we've always had a very good, healthy sexual relationship. But, I have also caught my husband, repeatedly, looking at porn - throughout the history of our marriage. It seems as though he sneaks it whenever he can. We have had many discussions, I have told him how it makes me feel, and how it hurts me so deeply. I've also explained how it diminishes my self confidence, and how it makes me feel that I am, then, so much less appealing to look at, in comparison with those "perfect" bodies. It makes me cringe inside, it's a gut-reaction.

I have been reading these posts, in an effort to understand, and hear from the male perspective. I truly wanted to understand why the need exists for a man to look at other women, when he has it all at home. I am the type of woman who, I think, gives it all to him. I dress up - with class, elegance, and in some very saucy lingerie. I have danced erotically for him, given him lap-dances, and pursued him in both diminuitive and aggressive ways. I have gone with him to purchase porn videos together, so that if he feels the need, we can both watch - so as not to make him feel guilty by viewing it alone. We have toys. I go out of my way to flirt with him, and lavish him with complements. I go out of my way to feed this viusal need in him, by providing romantic get-aways, be they at home or elsewhere. I stimulate him visually whenever possible - both with my body, and with videos.

So, my question still remains, given all this, why does he still feel the need to look elsewhere, when it's right here?

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Postby Southern Belle » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:56 am

Lack of self-control.......comes to mind. Eileen, I wouldn't encourage him, by going with him to buy or rent movies. Has he seen a couselor? Have you corresponded with Jerry?

You guys are short changing your marriage and God's plan for it, by inviting someone else to your bedroom, he should feel guilt, he is lusting over other women......

Will be praying for you guys,



::luv2
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Postby Paul B » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:23 pm

eileeninthebr wrote:... I have also caught my husband, repeatedly, looking at porn - throughout the history of our marriage. It seems as though he sneaks it whenever he can. We have had many discussions, I have told him how it makes me feel, and how it hurts me so deeply. I've also explained how it diminishes my self confidence, and how it makes me feel that I am, then, so much less appealing to look at, in comparison with those "perfect" bodies.
First please know that I have no intention to defend your husband's sin, only to try and help you understand it.

I fully understand why it diminishes your self confidence and makes you feel less appealing - but this reaction is not in line with why your husband looks. Men married super models and centerfolds also look at porn - it's got absolutely nothing to do with what a guy has at home, or how freely he receives what he has at home. I think it matters for you to know this, as you can avoid saying something that he sees as totally paranoid and unreasonable. You make it easy for him to dismiss your entire complaint by including something that he knows is false. In other words, focus on things that have a chance of getting through to him.
eileeninthebr wrote:It makes me cringe inside, it's a gut-reaction.

I have been reading these posts, in an effort to understand, and hear from the male perspective. I truly wanted to understand why the need exists for a man to look at other women, when he has it all at home.
It's not a need, it's a selfish desire. And it's not just about another woman - it's about the way porn is packaged. Porn is to real sex as distilled alcohol is to wine. Naturally produced wine can only have so alcohol content, but distilling allows a much higher alcohol content.

Porn is not just pictures of another women, it's close ups, action shots, it's multiple women. Porn is a distilled version of sex, with nothing but the parts that most hook into a man's mind. A huge part of the draw is that it is so much more visually powerful than real sex could ever be.

And like strong alcohol, porn dulls the senses, and prevent a person from being aware of other things, things which are more subtle but far more important and satisfying. The man who regularly takes in porn is incapable of enjoying real sex as he should, just a drunk can't enjoy much of what is around him.
eileeninthebr wrote: I have gone with him to purchase porn videos together, so that if he feels the need, we can both watch - so as not to make him feel guilty by viewing it alone.
This is about like going with the alcoholic to buy booze with him. He's still getting drunk, and he still can't function normally.
eileeninthebr wrote: So, my question still remains, given all this, why does he still feel the need to look elsewhere, when it's right here?
Bottom line - it's selfishness. The sad thing is that he is cheating not only you, but himself.

<>< Paul

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Postby Paul B » Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:42 am

beekeeper wrote:DW knows about the porn,

DW knows about my desires.

DW feels that we live a well adjusted normal and passionate marriage. My porn and masterbating are just what I do in private, and she looks the other way.

So it looks like you each tolerate the other' sin ... and I suspect you each justify your sin by focusing on your spouse's sin.

I guess that's parity, but it's very sad parity.

<>< Paul

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Postby KyWildcat » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:17 am

beekeeper wrote:
Paul B wrote: ... So it looks like you each tolerate the other' sin ... and I suspect you each justify your sin by focusing on your spouse's sin.

I guess that's parity, but it's very sad parity.

<>< Paul


You say that I have sinned.

I find sin defined in the bible, not from the doctrines of man.

graven images were a sin, computer screens and a source of images, as are our money and even family portraits.

sorry but I am a Christian, I will not follow down your road. To discuss 'sin' we need to discuss chapter and verse.

Otherwise it is like asking someone "Have you stopped beating your wife"?

It makes an assumption, which is not true.

:)

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"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.--Matthew 5:27-28 (NIV)
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Postby Devoted2Dearling » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:26 am

Beekeeper,

I know you're struggling with all this, and I empathize. But does the porn usage help you any? Really? I ask this gently, not judging you, but rather because I wonder if instead of helping it ends up only making the whole situation more painful. Your wife may say she doesn't care, but like almost all wives, I would suspect she knows she cannot compete with the young and perfectly airbrushed models Playboy, Hustler, and ad nauseum others offer you.

No one here can tell you what to do. But your own conscience is a good indicator of where all this is at. Listen to God, via the Holy Spirit through your conscience. What is He saying to you?

blessings, and again very sorry for this painful marriage you're in,
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Postby Devoted2Dearling » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:10 pm

beekeeper wrote:and yet Jesus said that he brought no new laws.

hmm.


Sorry.... I don't follow???
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Postby Paul B » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:21 am

beekeeper wrote:and yet Jesus said that he brought no new laws.

hmm.

Actually Jesus "raised the bar" a great deal! Read Matthew 5:21-48 - look for the "You have hear" statements, each followed by a "But I say to you" statement which is even harder than the requirement of the law. The law was about actions only - Jesus made it about the our heart and our thoughts.

<>< Paul

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Postby Devoted2Dearling » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:29 pm

Uh, beekeeper, I feel like you're not listening too well. Paul pointed out Jesus' clear comment re mental adultery:

Matthew 5:
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Why does a man look at porn? To have an artistic experience? Hardly. He looks at it in order to stimulate himself, often masturbating while doing so. It seems painfully transparent that Paul's point is correct here, and I'm puzzled as to why you continue to kick so against it.

Blessings (honestly!),
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Kwho1969

Postby Kwho1969 » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:53 pm

beekeeper wrote:I have no issue with the bible saying this. I agree entirely.

but I dont see the connection.

You are still making the assumption that EVERY male seeing a good looking female MUST now lust.

That is not true.

I am 'kicking' because you insist on trying to exert control over my mind.


beekeeper, your playing word games to justify your beliefs.

No, it is not lust to simply see a good looking woman. But, looking at pornography is not "simply seeing a good looking woman", to look at pornography, you must seek it out, and your doing so simply for the visual gratification that seeing a naked woman brings to you. This is lust, plain and simple....

Kwho1969

Postby Kwho1969 » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:08 pm

beekeeper wrote:To assume that the sight of a nude female will automatically cause a man's mind to go in adultry is an insult!


You are correct, the mere sight of a nude female will not cause a mans mind to go into adultry, but, his willfull choice to continue to look at her for the pleasure that he derives from seeing her is lusting after her, and Jesus plainly points out that this is the same as adultry.


[

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Postby Paul B » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:10 am

beekeeper wrote:To compare porn to adultery, is like comparing greed to bank robbery.

I agree. However, all four are sin none-the-less.

<>< Paul

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Postby Devoted2Dearling » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:53 am

beekeeper wrote:
devoted2wifey wrote: ...
Matthew 5:
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

...


I have no issue with the bible saying this. I agree entirely.

but I dont see the connection.

You are still making the assumption that EVERY male seeing a good looking female MUST now lust.

That is not true.

I am 'kicking' because you insist on trying to exert control over my mind.


Hehehe... well, let me continue to try and "brainwash" you... You are getting verrrrrryyyyy sleeeeeeeeeppppppyyyyyyy....

Okay, under the influence now? :wink:

Here's the difference between looking at a beautiful woman and lusting after her.

I'm walking down the street. A lovely African-American female walks by me, smelling of some yummy perfume. Do I notice her? Yep! Do I lust after her? No, because I stop that process as soon as it starts. She is beautiful and, truthfully, quite attractive sexually. But she is not my wife. When my thoughts say, "Hey, let's roll that image of her around in your mind like a piece of candy...." I say (provided I'm obedient to God), "No thanks. That is a beautiful woman you made, Lord. And she is yours, along with possibly being someone else's. Thank you for making beautiful women, and thank you that you gave me my beautiful woman."

That's scenario one. Next...

I walk into a convenience store (or if I'm bold, a porn shop). I buy a magazine. I go to my car, and drive to a secluded place. I open the magazine and begin viewing the pictures in it of naked women, many of which are quite expliciit. Nothing is left to the imagination. The entire time I was thinking about buying the magazine, buying the magazine, going to the secluded place in my car, and now, as I'm masturbating while looking at the pictures, I am caught in a web of my own lust.

As James writes,
1:13 No one, when tempted, should say, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.
14 But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it;
15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death.


Porn is about one thing, designed for one thing, and packaged for one thing. Like cigarettes, it is designed to create addiction. I plead with you not to allow yourself to be fooled by the multi-billion dollar industry that puts this filth out. They are anti-woman (and by inference anti-man), anti-relationship, anti-God.

Did I succeed in controlling your mind? :?
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"Because you're mine / I walk the line" - Johnny Cash

doulos86

Postby doulos86 » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:17 pm

BigFeet wrote:My W and I talked about this subject. I used to use porn to meet my
needs when she rejected me.

She viewed porn as a form of cheating. I finally saw it the way she did.
i would not say it was on the same scale as her physical affair but I now
do see it as wrong.

Last week I let her watch as I removed all the porn from my computer.
She was very moved by it.


Hey, my man. Jesus sure thinks of it on the same scale as a physical affair.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

If men realized that this is a deeply grave and destructive sin then they would be more passionate about their release.

Pornography is indeed a cancer upon society. It destroys from the inside-out.

doulos86

Re: When Do I Fully Trust Again?

Postby doulos86 » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:22 pm

happy wrote:OK this is a question for you quys out there. I need an honesy answer.

My husband has had problems with porn all of our married lives (8 years) and before that too.

We have talked and prayed about it for years. The last few times I have found out about it and it really devestated me. We worked through it and he as not done it for 3 months. I take away most opportunites and check behind him when I am gone for the evening (which is not often) I hesitate to leave him alone in the house and I always feel like I need to check behind him. THis is because he has never just come out and told me that he Slipped and did it again. I always found out about it.

OK here is my question. When can I trust him again. When do I stop checking the satalite bill, etc.??


I agree that you need to stop "checking behind him." You're his wife, not his nanny. And, unfortunately you knew he had a porn problem when you married. Thus, you have no reason "not to trust him." He is the same man that you married.

I think your openness about it and prayer is a very positive thing. Ultimately, he has to WANT to be free before it will happen. If others knew about it then he'd be more motivated to give it up. The ability to continue on in secret means that there are little consequences for his action in this area since it doesn't seem like sinning against God is that important. This is unfortunate and what Paul spoke of in Galatians 1:10.

The grace of God is so very abundantly given to all of us. But, we ought not use it as a license to sin. Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. Therefore, let us cast off the works of darkness and live righteously... in the light.

God bless...

sunny82

Postby sunny82 » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:24 am

I have another question.

I know I have a habit of asking these really naive questions, call me an idiot if you like, but I really want to know.


I was wondering....Do you guys think the feeling a man gets when his wife wants things he cannot provide, like say a BMW or Mercedes or that Million Dollar house she constantly admires, is synonymous to the feelings a wife has when her man indulges in porn.


Does it make him feel small and terribly inadequate?

It's something he wants that she can't give him. He enjoys looking and shopping but his wife can't provide what he desires from porn.

From what has been said it's not what a wife looks like or what she does his desire is to fill something deep inside. In actuality Lust is lust, no matter what form it may take, and it's something we all must battle.

I'm not condoning porn use by DH's but just trying to understand. I know what Shaunty says in her book "4 Women Only" but I still wrestle with the understanding of it all.

Thanks for all your comments!

ToWantNot

Postby ToWantNot » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:31 am

I was wondering....Do you guys think the feeling a man gets when his wife wants things he cannot provide, like say a BMW or Mercedes or that Million Dollar house she constantly admires, is synonymous to the feelings a wife has when her man indulges in porn.


hmmmm.......

I dont think thats a good comparison, because ..

1. Those are things.

2. There is no trust lost there

3. It is not adulterous to want things.

4. And feeling sad and feeling downright worthless are two different things.


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