Unconsummated Marriage

Erectile disfunction, premature ejaculation, delayed orgasm, etc.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:26 am

Yeah, I don't know that fear of fatherhood is really causing ED. My best guess was that maybe it's part of it.

Let me ask this: Is it normal for a man to most of the time not get aroused by the sight of his wife naked? I know that after years of marriage, the excitement can sometimes fade, but after only six months? I still get aroused sometimes by seeing her undressed, as I used to in the first months of marriage, but probably the majority of the time now nothing happens. I think she's beautiful, of course, and I keep reassuring her of that. But I'm worried that it seems like with every step forward we take, I seem to fall two steps back.

At this point neither of us really have much physical desire for IC. That's why I can't stay aroused whenever we attempt it. She desires IC on an emotional level, as do I, but as a guy shouldn't I be craving it on the physical level as well?

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Wed May 17, 2017 9:04 am

JD91 wrote:I still get aroused sometimes by seeing her undressed, as I used to in the first months of marriage, but probably the majority of the time now nothing happens.

I think you're pretty "normal". It fates away into just what you describe, you still think she's beautiful (even though we're 65 and 63, I still think she's beautiful) and SOMETIMES you get aroused. But it's not like the first couple months where EVERY TIME you get aroused.

JD91 wrote: I'm worried that it seems like with every step forward we take, I seem to fall two steps back.

I don't observe that through reading your posts. I see you making forward progress and I haven't seen you backslide at all. You're remaining faithful and in the correct path toward God's completion. It may be taking longer for you than for some others but I wouldn't "worry" about that. Just keep holding those precious nail-scarred Hands and giving Him this problem while doing what you know are the right things. The bible promises us that we shall "reap in due time, if we faint not...".

JD91 wrote:My best guess was that maybe it's part of it.

Well, psychological ED seldom has a "single" cause. Our brains are complex organisms and many neurons get involved in everything we do. That's why it's essential to have an EXPERT on your team to help you sort through this.

I'm not a doctor, nor the son of a doctor, and I've never played one on TV, either. But I'm guessing, since way back in the early parts of this thread, that your ED is not completely psychological. And, simply testing for testosterone levels does not rule out other possibilities. Again, that's where a good expert sex therapist will benefit you, especially if you can find one who is multidisciplined.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby Job29Man » Wed May 17, 2017 10:57 am

JD91 wrote:At this point neither of us really have much physical desire for IC. That's why I can't stay aroused whenever we attempt it. She desires IC on an emotional level, as do I, but as a guy shouldn't I be craving it on the physical level as well?


Yes, young and healthy people without extraordinary problems, should be craving sex on a physical level as well.

Probably a bunch of folks will jump all over that with objections about "individual variation, YMMV, not everyone's the same" blah blah blah.

Baloney. Young healthy people should be [physically desirous], at least sometimes. That's the way God designed people. If they aren't ever [physically desirous] from proximity or foreplay or anything, then they are either not young, or not healthy, or they have an extraordinary problem somewhere.

In that case you'd need serious intervention by an MD, or sex therapist, or nutritionist, or some professional.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Wed May 17, 2017 12:23 pm

tjw wrote:I think you're pretty "normal". It fates away into just what you describe, you still think she's beautiful (even though we're 65 and 63, I still think she's beautiful) and SOMETIMES you get aroused. But it's not like the first couple months where EVERY TIME you get aroused


That's good to know.

And Job, I agree. Though with me I think it's not that I'm never [physically desirous] so much as that the thought of IC just isn't really arousing. So I'm [physically desirous] sometimes, but for what? Definitely for things related to my fetish, and sometimes to see DW naked, but not for IC itself. In my head, I know that it sounds like it would feel good, and I assume it will, but for some reason my brain just doesn't seem to connect the idea of sex with the natural physical response of arousal. If I ever lust after a woman, I get aroused by the thought of her but not really by the specific thought of having IC with her. I think that's how I've always been, but I never realized it wasn't exactly normal until I got married.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby MayDayGirl » Wed May 17, 2017 1:02 pm

JD91 wrote:So I'm [physically desirous] sometimes, but for what? Definitely for things related to my fetish,.


Not sure how many times we need to circle around this, but I will once again say that this is your real, only issue. Find a mental health professional who can help de-program you. There is nothing normal about your lack of desire.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby Job29Man » Wed May 17, 2017 8:33 pm

I'm going to second what MayDayGirl says. You aren't going to get anywhere with this on your own, nor talking on an anonymous internet forum like TMB. You'll need to pony up the bucks and see a professional and get your crossed wires uncrossed.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Thu May 18, 2017 3:31 am

^^^ Yeah, that's what I thought I was doing with my current counselor, until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling." He had all the right credentials and certifications, but that was his best advice. It's hard to find a secular professional who doesn't also list on their site that they deal with "transgender issues" and other wacky nonsense. But we'll keep looking.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby MayDayGirl » Thu May 18, 2017 4:01 am

You don't have to agree with every service a professional provides. Don't you think that plenty of people would think your issues are 'wacky nonsense'? I'm not saying that to be harsh, but don't you think this has gone on long enough?

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Thu May 18, 2017 5:18 am

JD91 wrote:If I ever lust after a woman, I get aroused by the thought of her but not really by the specific thought of having IC with her.


This is not abnormal, either. PIV is more the "fulfillment" phase of the "contract". The arousal comes through visual and the sense that the woman wants you. I don't think you're getting half of the equation because your wife also has hangups.

Focus less on the past. Train your energy upon the present and the future. I love old southern-gospel songs....one of my favorites is "... I lost my past, when I found His presence...."

A good psychiatrist told me when I was a young man (BTW, he was Jewish) that I should think of my penis as a "trust meter". It doesn't necessarily mean trusting your wife. It can be trust that other aspects of your life may change in ways that you don't want them to. It can be that in some cases, the "little head" is smarter than the "big head".

Fear of pregnancy is a BIG factor. I wouldn't rule that out as a contributor. Other people disagree with me that this may have a contributing physical factor. That is ok, because the bible says "...in a multitude of counselors, there is safety....".

Go to your specialist with an open mind. The things you have been told here are of great value, but they come from people who do not have clinical experience treating ED. Me included.

JD91 wrote:until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling."


Ah, the curse of christianity..... we just can't admit that we DON'T KNOW and that somehow, the bible has to have EVERY answer. But, the bible is a SPIRITUAL book which has SPIRITUAL answers. Therefore, a "christian" counselor is going to attempt to deliver a biblical solution. And, oftentimes, it is a biblical solution which is required.

Your situation has no biblical solution. You have obeyed God in your marriage, your wife also. It is not biblical help that you need. You need help from someone who understands sexual problems at a clinical level. Since none of this understanding is in the bible, then it has no importance whether you seek help from a "christian" counselor, and in a certain sense, the "wackier", the better, because that would be an individual who has disciplined him/herself into cause and effect of sexual misfortune.

It may just be a "whack-job" who God has placed in your path to help you. God is able to keep you in rejection of things which are against His will.
Go to the person who KNOWS HOW.

And, also..... WWJD? If Jesus were a therapist, would he list on His website that He deals with transgender issues? Wouldn't Jesus' MO be to show
acceptance of his patient just as he is? And, make him feel as if he found empathy, concern, and willingness to help?

Frequently, over my life, I have found that people who don't wear christianity on their sleeves or advertise "honk, if you love Jesus" are some of those who are deadly serious about following His example. And, some who don't quote "chapter and verse" are those who have both read and understood them and made them a solid part of their hearts and lives.

I am so blessed to have a Dad who was like this. No phylacteries. But a deep, abiding sense of working with God and allowing God to work through him.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby poetess » Thu May 18, 2017 6:14 am

TJW, I think that fear of pregnancy might well play a role, but fear of pregnancy isn't solved by a deeper resolve NOT to get pregnant--it's solved by a deeper awareness of God's sovereign goodness, including understanding of what a good gift children are. Likewise, it isn't actually true that the Bible has no answers to this, but secular psychologists do. It IS true that very few Christian counselors are equipped to deal with such things, but few secular ones are, either--they're likely to come up with sinful resolutions.

Psychology is, by definition and by etymology (where the word comes from) study of the psyche, what Christians call the soul. If this is a physical issue, needing care of a medical doctor, then indeed Scripture doesn't give instructions on such things as what doses of testosterone to give. But if it is a psychological issue--a mind/soul issue--then biblical wisdom can indeed solve it. Imagining the smiling face of Jesus is not deep biblical wisdom; it's trite and silly and I'd daresay even unbiblical. But a deep understanding of marriage and sexuality from a biblical framework should indeed "solve" this problem, if it is a soul issue.

BTW, Jesus never accepts people "just as they are." He loves us and chooses us just as we are. That's different from "accepting" us just as we are. He loves us, forgives us, and changes us (sanctification).
Marriage--what a wonderful image of Christ's love for His bride!

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby seeking perspective » Thu May 18, 2017 11:27 am

Instead of dismissing anyone who specializes in what you see as "wacky nonsense," perhaps you could see the specialty lists as an indication that the person is experienced with meeting people where they are and helping them cope with whatever their challenges are.

You are looking at everything else as a reason for your challenges--fear of parenting, a counselor who wasn't a good fit, wacky nonsense, and so on. Your WAM preference is part of how you see yourself and how you experience sexual arousal. It doesn't sound to me like you want to change that at all.

While I respect your feelings (the prospect of letting go of a core part of your self identity is truly difficult), you are letting your feelings interfere with your marriage. That isn't fair to your wife, and it isn't fair to you.

Although a preference for WAM may not be a problem for everyone, in your case, it is. Find someone who will help you do what you don't want to do for the sake of your marriage. You may even find a secular counselor who is able to help you address the problems without letting go of the WAM. Stop looking for excuses, and start looking for someone who has some experience in helping people with non-typical sexual issues.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby Learning1 » Thu May 18, 2017 4:53 pm

JD91 wrote: until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling."


ummm, to me that's just creepy.

I firmly believe God created sex for us to enjoy, and God gave us Song of Sol. as a model for an amazing romantic sexual relationship, and God is pleased with healthy sex in marriage but "imagining the face of Jesus smiling" while I'm having sex, no thank you. ....you need a new therapist.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Fri May 19, 2017 3:49 am

Right, a psychologist listing that they deal with "transgender issues" could well mean they are knowledgeable about the very real disorder of gender dysphoria, so I shouldn't have used that as an example. I'm just talking about counselors who are completely onboard with the whole moral/sexual revolution, meaning they are approaching their practice from a worldview that is radically different than a Christian worldview. And as poetess pointed out, this is in many ways still a "soul issue" for me, so I'd prefer to find a counselor who approaches his practice from a worldview that's at least not completely antithetical to my worldview.

Actually, the counselor who said to picture the "face of Jesus smiling" did give me the name of a guy in my area who specializes in paraphelia/fetishes. He wrote a chapter about them in a clinical textbook, so I'm thinking I should reach out to him if I really want to get the WAM thing under control (and I do). Yes, it is something that is very hard to let go of, but as it's been pointed out I owe it to my wife, and ultimately I'd much rather enjoy sexual feelings in real life with her than alone with empty fantasies in my brain.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ledgemoor » Fri May 19, 2017 5:28 am

Learning1 wrote:
JD91 wrote: until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling."

ummm, to me that's just creepy.
I don't have a problem with it. The omniscience and omnipresence of God in the form of the Holy Spirit is pretty standard theology. Ok, strictly speaking, it isn't Jesus per se, but for casual conversation, it's close enough.

If we were to say that God knows when we commit adultery and is saddened by that, no one would bat an eye. So why is it creepy if He smiles when a married couple does what He ordained us to do? I frequently thank Him for my wife, marriage, and sex while I am one with her. What better time to do it?

I'm not picking on you, Learning1. Outside TMB forums, I suspect most people would agree with you. This illustrates ungodly hangups people still have about sex. I hope the church can come to a place where we welcome God into all aspects of our lives, including our bedrooms.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Fri May 19, 2017 6:06 am

JD91 wrote:I'm thinking I should reach out to him if I really want to get the WAM thing under control (and I do).


Agreed. You are not asking him for his "worldview" or about any "soul" issues. Your pastor is likely to be completely capable to help you with any
soul issues. The bible is completely useful for this instruction.

He may have been sent your way by God. The bible is full of stories in which God used unbelievers and strugglers to accomplish His goals. If he has authorship in that area, he's the kind of person you may greatly benefit from. He will bring clinical education and scientific experience to the table.

If he suggests anything not in accord with God's word, just say "no". You don't have to be afraid of "worldly" viewpoints. You will encounter a plethora of those in every segment of your life. God has given you "the breastplate of righteousness" and "the helmet of salvation".

JD91 wrote: this is in many ways still a "soul issue" for me


Your counselor's "see Jesus smile" statement may be a response to his/her recognition of a religious "hangup" about sex for you... if you feel comfortable here to do so, please share about your soul issue.... these can be a real show-stopper.... I was 50 years old before my hangup about Sunday work went under the blood..... there can be some really strong neural networks formed in these "strongholds".

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby MayDayGirl » Fri May 19, 2017 8:56 am

ledgemoor wrote:
Learning1 wrote:
JD91 wrote: until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling."

ummm, to me that's just creepy.
I don't have a problem with it. The omniscience and omnipresence of God in the form of the Holy Spirit is pretty standard theology. Ok, strictly speaking, it isn't Jesus per se, but for casual conversation, it's close enough.

If we were to say that God knows when we commit adultery and is saddened by that, no one would bat an eye. So why is it creepy if He smiles when a married couple does what He ordained us to do? I frequently thank Him for my wife, marriage, and sex while I am one with her. What better time to do it?

I'm not picking on you, Learning1. Outside TMB forums, I suspect most people would agree with you. This illustrates ungodly hangups people still have about sex. I hope the church can come to a place where we welcome God into all aspects of our lives, including our bedrooms.


The OP has serious problems with arousal due to a fetish issue. He is a young man who has been unable to consummate his marriage since October. It's bizarre that the only advice he received from a Christian counselor is to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling." Not only is that not helpful, it's probably hindering where his thoughts should be (on his wife).

I don't think it's an 'ungodly hang up' to need to concentrate on sexual thoughts only and the person you are with. Many women on TMB talk about troubles they have keeping their mind on sex, which prevents them from being aroused and enjoying it. While we 'know' in our heads that God can see what we are doing at all times and in all places, I think the vast majority of people don't want to imagine Him watching us during the actual act. Just as we wouldn't want our earthly parents to watch us, though we know they also bless our union.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby poetess » Fri May 19, 2017 9:58 am

I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing Jesus is present, thanking Him after sex while you are both still naked, and so forth. But nowhere in Scripture are we told to "imagine" Jesus' face, and we are in fact told not to make images of God. I am not saying that it is wrong to happen to imagine that Jesus is present in the room, but seeking to "bring up" an image of Christ in one's mind is more seance than Christian activity.
Marriage--what a wonderful image of Christ's love for His bride!

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby Learning1 » Fri May 19, 2017 11:52 am

ledgemoor wrote:
Learning1 wrote:
JD91 wrote: until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling."

ummm, to me that's just creepy.
I don't have a problem with it. The omniscience and omnipresence of God in the form of the Holy Spirit is pretty standard theology. Ok, strictly speaking, it isn't Jesus per se, but for casual conversation, it's close enough.

If we were to say that God knows when we commit adultery and is saddened by that, no one would bat an eye. So why is it creepy if He smiles when a married couple does what He ordained us to do? I frequently thank Him for my wife, marriage, and sex while I am one with her. What better time to do it?

I'm not picking on you, Learning1. Outside TMB forums, I suspect most people would agree with you. This illustrates ungodly hangups people still have about sex. I hope the church can come to a place where we welcome God into all aspects of our lives, including our bedrooms.


Hi Ledgemoor, Did you read the second sentence of my post ? You didn't quote it. I'll quote it below.

Learning1 wrote:
JD91 wrote: until he told me to "imagine the face of Jesus smiling."


I firmly believe God created sex for us to enjoy, and God gave us Song of Sol. as a model for an amazing romantic sexual relationship, and God is pleased with healthy sex in marriage but "imagining the face of Jesus smiling" while I'm having sex, no thank you. ....you need a new therapist.


Maybe the therapist did not mean to literally "imagine the face of Jesus smiling when you are having sex." But that is what was said and still creepy and from a Christian with no ungodly hang ups bout sex.
“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” C.S. Lewis

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ledgemoor » Fri May 19, 2017 2:10 pm

Yes, I read your whole post :-).

While we 'know' in our heads that God can see what we are doing at all times and in all places, I think the vast majority of people don't want to imagine Him watching us during the actual act. Just as we wouldn't want our earthly parents to watch us, though we know they also bless our union.

"God our father" is a metaphor. He created cells and atoms and quarks and galaxies and eggs and sperm and vaginas and penises and sex and life itself. Maybe He isn't literally omniscient and omnipresent. Maybe he is in our bedroom when we make love and maybe He isn't. If He is, I see nothing creepy about it.

If you don't want to think about it that's fine too. MDG, I'm not defending Imagining-Jesus-in-the-bedroom as a counseling technique :-).

JD91, please please please go to the Male Testosterone Issues forum and post your testosterone levels and a bit of your background. If no one agrees with me that it may well be a factor, then I apologize in advance for wasting five minutes of your life. But if I am right and low testosterone is a factor, no amount of counseling will fix that. And at least you will shut me up about it :lol:.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Sat May 20, 2017 3:17 am

Yes, please do post about your test results. I won't reply, because you need to hear from some of the folks who know about this subject.

Testosterone is not the only possible physical factor. Both the physical aspects and the psychological aspects have to work in harmony to produce successful PIV. It is possible with some physical scenarios to have successful masturbation but not successful PIV. It's usually seen in older guys where vascular blockage is the "culprit".

It is a "conservation" issue.... when the guy is at rest (and PIV usually brings on energetic demand) the body is willing to let the penis have the blood. The supply arteries are at low capacity due to atherosclerotic changes, and the venous valves are "leaky".... along comes the blood supply demand to the musculature brought on by PIV activity..... and the body's will to protect itself from muscle tissue death is stronger than its will to have sex.

The reason I understand this specific case is because I suffer from it. I didn't when I was younger, but now, at 65, and having a wonderful wife who I trust completely. and a lovely christian woman also, it is frequent that I lose my erection along the way. It is accompanied by slight angina occurring from the excitement - my heart rate goes up, blood pressure goes up, my body feels the demand ischemia in the heart, and it says "no, penis, you can't have that blood right now". It doesn't matter that I WANT sex and have no inhibitors psychologically, the autonomic response takes over.

When I was a younger man, I also had a period of psychological ED following my wife's adulteries in which she sought to blame me for her sin - however, a couple of months found me able to perform again, even in the presence of psychological factors which could have easily caused the ED to continue.

Although it's not common in younger men, this phenomenon and others are not really age-respecters. There are similar possibilities in congenital vasculature formation, even down to something as simple as the length of the veins (such as occurs in varicosity) or can occur through injury.

That is why it's important for you to seek medical doctors who have expert understanding of sexual mechanism and who are willing to get "out of the box" with their brains. Who are willing to make tests instead of assumptions, even when insurance companies love assumptions because they don't cost money.

ledgemoor wrote:But if I am right and low testosterone is a factor, no amount of counseling will fix that.


This is correct. And, as I understand it, testosterone can read in the "normal" range, and still be "low" in the sexual sense. Ledgemoor is a knowledgeable person on that subject with his own experience to share. And, I am led to believe that there is an underlying physical factor because I think this has gone on too long for it to be entirely psychological. I think by now, if it were psychosomatic, you would have come to the resolution and be having happy sex with your wife.


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