Unconsummated Marriage

Erectile disfunction, premature ejaculation, delayed orgasm, etc.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby jude700 » Mon May 22, 2017 5:40 am

JD, did you state that you climaxed between her thighs? If so, there is a possibility that you, as a couple, may conceive. All that is needed is that the sperm gets in the vagina, and then to an egg, or two. This may also remove your ED.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Mon May 22, 2017 1:09 pm

tjw wrote:It is a "conservation" issue.... when the guy is at rest (and PIV usually brings on energetic demand) the body is willing to let the penis have the blood. The supply arteries are at low capacity due to atherosclerotic changes, and the venous valves are "leaky".... along comes the blood supply demand to the musculature brought on by PIV activity..... and the body's will to protect itself from muscle tissue death is stronger than its will to have sex.

The reason I understand this specific case is because I suffer from it. I didn't when I was younger, but now, at 65, and having a wonderful wife who I trust completely. and a lovely christian woman also, it is frequent that I lose my erection along the way. It is accompanied by slight angina occurring from the excitement - my heart rate goes up, blood pressure goes up, my body feels the demand ischemia in the heart, and it says "no, penis, you can't have that blood right now". It doesn't matter that I WANT sex and have no inhibitors psychologically, the autonomic response takes over.


Hm, this is interesting. I don't think I have any bloodflow issues though, and I've never had an injury. I lose my erection long before getting to any cardiovascular movements. Last night was pretty typical...I started getting an erection as she undressed, but once we were both unclothed it went away and didn't come back, even in the midst of a lot of passionate kissing and touching. And it's not that I feel aroused with no erection; I'm just not aroused at all. But if I look at anything related to my fetish, I get to full arousal/erection almost instantly.

This is why I really do think my fetish issue is mainly to blame. I think you're right that if this were mere performance anxiety, I would have overcome it by now. But the fetish issue is much deeper. I'm afraid it's killing our intimacy, and by extension ultimately killing our marriage. I really wish that weren't the case, but at this point I honestly think my fetish is the main issue.

jude700 wrote:JD, did you state that you climaxed between her thighs? If so, there is a possibility that you, as a couple, may conceive. All that is needed is that the sperm gets in the vagina, and then to an egg, or two. This may also remove your ED.


Yes, a couple times. Doesn't it have to get kind of deep in there? I guess it's possible, but right now we're not trying to conceive anyway. I imagine it would get much harder to work out our sexual issues once we have a kid, so I think we should not try to get pregnant until after we establish a healthy sex life.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Mon May 22, 2017 1:51 pm

I want to encourage you to pursue this scientifically, and don't make assumptions. Make tests. Determine in quantitative and qualitative analysis what works in your body, and what doesn't work in your body. Seek the guidance of a professional medical doctor.

Many have been the investigators who spent years, even decades, down an incorrect path because of an assumption. I don't want that to be you, years from now, finding out you had some incompetent venous valves which, if treated medically, could have provided you a robust erection which would have carried you and your wife into joyous sex.

One gentleman on your other thread gave what seems to be sound advice, urology is a good path to set yourself on. His suggestion of the caverject is reasonable. It is more powerful than the PDE5 inhibitors at producing erections.

I don't know about testosterone. I was hoping one of the knowledgeable brethren would weigh in on your other thread. Perhaps one of them will as they return to the board. Your 600 ng/dl figure seems to be in the center of most lab ranges. But, if I understand correctly, a capable practitioner can increase this level for you. It's not really a matter of "rule out"..... it is a matter of helping the body systems learn a "new normal"....

I am afraid you still haven't been to a competent, experienced sexual therapist. Even when I had troubles in my late teens and early 20s, when everyone thought that ED was entirely psychological, my psychiatrist knew enough about the subject to try halotestin on me. He knew it wasn't a simple matter which could be "bagged" into psychogenic or physiogenic origins, that both paths can be utilized for a result. I also, many years later, when I had psychological ED, went to a urologist who prescribed testosterone injections along with niacin (a vasodilator) as well as help from a counselor-therapist. Those were the days before Viagra and cousins.

I am not a fan of doctors (or engineers, or scientists) who take an "adjust to normal" philosophy about treatment protocol. I much prefer those who study "cause and effect" and work for "effect" while maintaining acceptable risk.

JD91 wrote:the fetish issue is much deeper. I'm afraid it's killing our intimacy, and by extension ultimately killing our marriage.


Wow. My beloved young brother, please don't give power to satan in your life. This "fetish" of yours is nothing but an idea in your mind. You keep speaking this idea into a "stronghold". It is not "killing" anything between you and your wife. It is not being practiced by you anymore. This "fetish" of yours is what God's word calls an "imagination", and the Apostle Paul says (I Corinthians 10:3-5)

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Either this bible that you and I love and espouse is truth, or it's not. Choose a different manner of speaking about your imagination. God and His word can, and will, tear this completely down, and maintain your "fetish" in the imagination category which has absolutely nothing to do with you and your wife and your marital intimacy. God will become the author and the finisher of your marriage. Count on it, believe it, and let your words indicate that truth.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby seeking perspective » Tue May 23, 2017 9:51 am

I've read some fascinating research about sexuality, sexual wiring, and why we desire the things we do. Some of this research has been specifically about the development of fetishes. I'm not able to link to this research here, as some of it is behind a subscription wall and some has been shared with me privately by a researcher. I'll do my best to explain what I've read.

God designed us as sexual beings, even down to the process of how we develop our specific sexual desires. Although for most of us, this wiring happens in fairly typical and predictable ways, sometimes it does not.

Much of our sexuality involves learned responses. We learn responses and behaviors over time--and that means we can unlearn them as well. The changes in my own life are testament to this. We can train ourselves in how we think and act.

Some sexual response, however, involves imprinting. Whereas learning happens over time and can be reversed, sexual imprinting is immediate and cannot be changed. It is a permanent rewiring that connects our sexuality with a particular view or sensation. For most of us, this happens in fairly predictable ways. Our first awareness of sexual tingling in the genitals occurs in conjunction with something that would be considered a typical and appropriate stimulus. This is part of God's design for how our sexuality develops in our early years.

Research has found that fetishes (sexual desire for an object) and partialism (sexual desire focused on a body part other than the genitals) develop as a result of sexual imprinting that is not typical. They aren't something that can be changed or unlearned. Behavior can be unlearned, but the actual preferences and desires cannot be.

It isn't helpful to talk about a fetish as something to be gotten rid of. It simply is not possible unless God chooses to perform a miracle. Therapy is not going to erase this desire. It can, however, help you learn how to work with the desire.

This is a tough case, I think. If this were a situation where the fetish were a desire but is not necessary to sexual performance, it wouldn't necessarily be a problem. Here, though, it clearly is necessary and is causing a problem.

JD91, I encourage you to work with someone with experience in sexual fetishes. Seek support for your wife as well. She needs to understand that there is nothing wrong with her, and she would benefit from understanding how fetishes develop. I have a guest post on my blog from a wife who learned to work with her husband's partialism. While there are some significant differences in your situations, your wife might find it helpful to read what another woman has to say about accepting her husband as he is and learning to adapt to his preferences. Your fetish is part of who you are, and both you and your wife are going to need to work together to figure out how to make intimacy work in your marriage.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Tue May 23, 2017 11:06 am

seeking perspective wrote:Our first awareness of sexual tingling in the genitals occurs in conjunction with something that would be considered a typical and appropriate stimulus. This is part of God's design for how our sexuality develops in our early years.


This is borne true in the knowledge of many people, 2 of which I have known closely. One had a doctorate in clinical psychology and the other was an admitted homosexual. They both attributed the homosexual inclination to be largely deterministic based upon the first and earlier sexual experiences in one's life.

This same principle can be stated in many abnormal psychologic behaviors, even extending to psychopathy. Even extended to our "sin nature", some roots can be identified in early life experiences which appeared to provide us gratification.

My friend the homosexual says that the bible is true, as well as my friend the clinical psychologist. Both of them bear testimony to God's power to give victory. The doctor, from his clinical observation. The homosexual, from the fact that he and his wife had a successful and rewarding marriage through now more than 40 years. They raised two daughters and sent them both to bible school. He was a pastor during many of those years.

He admitted that his desires would carry him back into enticement toward sex with younger men. I don't think that desire ever changed. However, God led him and his wife through a victorious marriage IN SPITE of his desire.

I think seeking perspective has brought you a FABULOUS article for you and your wife and has given you excellent advice.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ng95901 » Tue May 23, 2017 12:16 pm

seeking perspective wrote:Some sexual response, however, involves imprinting. Whereas learning happens over time and can be reversed, sexual imprinting is immediate and cannot be changed. It is a permanent rewiring that connects our sexuality with a particular view or sensation. For most of us, this happens in fairly predictable ways. Our first awareness of sexual tingling in the genitals occurs in conjunction with something that would be considered a typical and appropriate stimulus. This is part of God's design for how our sexuality develops in our early years.


While scientists are reluctant to identify a specific gene that causes partialisms, fetishes and the like, they are willing to argue the probability that some of us are inherently predisposed to them. In one of his webcast lectures that I was privileged to attend, Dr. Justin Lehmiller stated emphatically that he would go as far as to, “argue that a person is more likely to be born with a generalized predisposition to developing fetishes, as opposed to being born with a specific fetish.”

Several studies have found that many common partialisms/fetishes originate through learning processes, such as classical conditioning or imprinting. This occurs when a neutral stimulus (e.g., feet, shoes) is repeatedly paired with an arousing stimulus, that previously neutral stimulus can eventually become a cue for sexual arousal. Studies with non-clinical samples have found that it is possible to condition mild fetishes in participants for a variety of objects when strict conditioning principles are applied.

During my own study during which I surveyed several thousand respondents (over 10k) about their specific and unique interests, the data indicated that they can be formulated and recalled at a very young age. As many as 50% of the respondents insisted that they could recall an awareness of their given interest as early as 7 years of age, while 18% indicated that said awareness occurred during the early stages of adolescence. Another 23% indicated that it occurred as late as 11-14.

Research has indicated that personality traits are most likely linked to such partialisms and fetishes. For instance, men with unique sexual interests, tend to score higher on measures of introversion and neuroticism than men without such interests. But these men did not have any psychological problems or disorders. Their scores on these personality measures fell well WITHIN the normal range. They simply had elevated scores on these personality traits and elevated levels of these traits could potentially lay the groundwork for a unique sexual interest to emerge.

Lehmiller further reiterated that personality is undoubtedly influenced by environmental factors and that studies have also suggested that several personality traits are heritable to some degree. So, to the extent that individuals are born with tendencies toward certain personality traits, this could help to explain why some people are more likely to develop fetishes/partialisms than others.

I agree with seeking perspective. This is indeed a unique case were working the expertise of someone who is familiar with partialisms/fetishes and their formation would be optimal. As one who has spent the better part of two decades studying his own specific predilection, I can attest to how the most mundane and innocent of childhood occurrences can lead to the formation of a lifelong fascination such as partialism or fetish.

The article is indeed an excellent resource. I happen to personally know the amazing woman who was brave enough to participate. She is scheduled to begin an externship at a local hospital here in the mountains in the coming week…
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Thu May 25, 2017 4:25 am

These are some very helpful insights. I agree that a fetish, at least mine, is something imprinted and therefore permanent. It's definitely rooted in my sexual development as a child. I believe I may be able to re-wire my brain from certain habits, like the urge to look at or think about WAM scenarios first thing in the morning, but probably these desires themselves will never go away. I'm thankful that mine are not inherently sinful or dangerous.

That is a very good blog post about learning how to make the best of a foot fetish in marriage. I shared it with my wife and we'll probably talk about it soon. The biggest difference from my situation is that it sounded like her husband's foot fetish wasn't causing him ED when it came to normal IC. That and a foot fetish is somewhat more practical than mine. I keep going back and forth in my head about whether I should continue to not ask DW to participate in the fetish until we're able to have PIV, or if having her satisfying some of my fetish desires now and then would make it easier for me to give up looking at it on the internet and thus move closer to normal intimacy with her. I think a big reason why I'm so tempted and so obsessed with the fantasy of seeing her messy is because it's currently "forbidden," like how we the desire for sex with each other built up with intensity before we were married. I wonder if removing the "forbidenness" of it would allow me to stop going crazy thinking/fantasizing about it, realize it's not quite as incredible as I'd built it up to be in my head, and then become more interested in the thing we haven't done yet: PIV.

Of course, she did participate in the fetish on our honeymoon. But I think the reason my fetish desire has built up is because we decided we wouldn't do it again, at least not until after having PIV. So maybe if she became open to participating, even just once every handful of months, my drive for the fetish would be reduced. Then it would no longer be this forbidden, gloriously built-up fantasy in my mind, which is currently driving me so crazy that it's hard to think about anything else.

I'm definitely going to call the sex therapist near me who specializes in and has published work on fetishes, (he was the one referred to me by my last counselor). I agree that this is the wisest next step.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Thu May 25, 2017 4:49 am

I'm thinking about how before marriage, I was crazy about the thought of seeing DW naked, since I never had and wasn't able to at that point. I had to fight everyday the temptations to fantasize about her, and the longer we dated the more intense it got. Now, I get to see her naked everyday. I still like it, but I no longer go crazy fantasizing about it throughout the day, now that her naked body is no longer a fantasy. So I'm thinking maybe it would work the same way with the WAM fetish. If it were no longer a crazy fantasy in my mind, but rather something I got to do with her now and then, perhaps then I would no longer be obsessed with it and we could finally move forward.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby tjw » Thu May 25, 2017 5:21 am

JD91 wrote:I think a big reason why I'm so tempted and so obsessed with the fantasy of seeing her messy is because it's currently "forbidden,"


Yes, my dear young brother. That is our human nature. "Forbidden fruit" is always the sweetest in our minds...

In fact, a big part of my christian life came when I finally got a hold of the concept that temptation is not sin, that being tempted, alone, is not an indicator of my "unsaved" condition. I don't know why this was so difficult for me to grasp. The bible taught me that Jesus was sinless, yet, there He is being tempted.....

JD91 wrote:If it were no longer a crazy fantasy in my mind, but rather something I got to do with her now and then, perhaps then I would no longer be obsessed with it and we could finally move forward.


I think you are right. But, you can't change your wife. But, prayer can work.

JD91 wrote:realize it's not quite as incredible as I'd built it up to be in my head,


Exactly. You are getting hold of the prinicples taught in the bible. We can't simply "put away" these things. We have to "replace". That's why seeing a medical doctor for help, not just to "rule out" physical cause, is a valid approach. I think that you will get "incredible" associated with your wife if you can maintain your erection. Right now, you associate "incredible" with past experience. That's NORMAL. We ALL do that. We don't know "incredible" until "incredible" is experienced.

I'll never forget the time I took a co-worker from India out to supper - I pulled into a great steak house and my mouth was watering.... but he was completely unenthusiastic about it, and told me he had never eaten a "steak" - I understood immediately, and took him to an Indian buffet instead. The curry chicken was quite good.... fortunately, I had eaten those foods before and knew I could enjoy it as well.

If this new counselor is a good counselor, he/she will teach you how to break your fixation, in obedience to "...be ye transformed, by the renewing of your mind....." - and, he/she, at some point, will invite your wife to participate as well....

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ng95901 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:34 am

JD91 wrote:That is a very good blog post about learning how to make the best of a foot fetish in marriage. I shared it with my wife and we'll probably talk about it soon. The biggest difference from my situation is that it sounded like her husband's foot fetish wasn't causing him ED when it came to normal IC. That and a foot fetish is somewhat more practical than mine...


Any partialism has the potential to be at the root cause of many a dysfunction and podophilia is no exception. In your case the neutral cue was not as common (e.g. feet, shoes, hosiery) and so you were instead imprinted or conditioned with WAM aspects(e.g. food, mud, gunge, paint), until it eventually become the dominant cue for your own sexual arousal. The formation of the cue, or what we call the imprinting event(or conditioning event depending on frequency), can be a very powerful event recalled for many years after. In some cases, just rationalizing that event can be a catalyst for a breakthrough. This is not abnormal at all. First of all, evidence suggests that males are more predisposed for partialisms than women are and new research also indicates that the male brain is somehow designed to imprint on individual sexual cues. Ogi Ogas talks about this biological predisposition in males on psychology today...

While researching and writing for our blog, Foot Fetish 101, we had the pleasure of conversing with and and in some cases, interviewing couples over the years who have reported many of the same issues that you have described here. Once they began working with an MFT familiar with partialisms (podophilia in this case) and sexual cue formation, many of the issues dissipated. As they progressed, did some required 'homework' of their own by researching together to understand the nature of the cue and how it formed, they moved on to have a happy and productive marriage bed with some aspects of said cue incorporated. It is my firm belief that you and your wife can do the same...
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby sunny-dee » Thu May 25, 2017 1:59 pm

JD91 wrote:I think a big reason why I'm so tempted and so obsessed with the fantasy of seeing her messy is because it's currently "forbidden," like how we the desire for sex with each other built up with intensity before we were married. I wonder if removing the "forbidenness" of it would allow me to stop going crazy thinking/fantasizing about it, realize it's not quite as incredible as I'd built it up to be in my head, and then become more interested in the thing we haven't done yet: PIV.


I would be really hesitant to indulge in this. This is the same reasoning that a lot of husbands use for justifying sex acts they see in porn -- if their wife would only do X, then I wouldn't need to fantasize with porn.

The fact is you *did* try this, it did not result in sex, and it wasn't like you imagined.

Also, insisting that your wife perform your fantasy -- fantasies which are not about her -- is essentially objectifying her. Sex in that scenario isn't about intimacy; it's about wish fulfillment.

You've mentioned that your wife has not had the same sexual enjoyment as this situation stretches on. I want to put in a possibility here -- it is likely because she doubts that you desire her. That is how my husband makes me feel. Forcing her to participate in a fantasy on the off chance that it could turn you on enough to result in IC is not going to make her feel better about your feelings toward her. Even the attitude of not caring about her naked body -- trust me, she knows that even if you never said it to her and it is feeding every fear that she has about your relationship.

My husband's gatekeeping and rigid control over sex and intimacy actively makes me feel like he is not in love with me, like he does not desire me, and that I am unwanted. This is 100% because of his actions. Finding out that he was regularly looking at porn made it even worse. If he then came to me and said "I really want you to act out X fantasy, because I think that'll help me keep it up while I'm with you," I'd tell him there was no relationship left to salvage and pack up and head to my mom's.

If your wife is reacting at all like I do, there are a million doubts in her mind right now. Doubling down on your fantasy will confirm the absolute worst that she is thinking.

You've been saying this for at least a few weeks now, but you need to go to a sex therapist NOW. This is a big deal.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby doug-h » Thu May 25, 2017 4:51 pm

I'm going to throw my two cents in, and then shut up.

You need to take some highly visible action besides talking about it. Your wife needs to see you owning this problem and taking steps to put it behind you. I agree with a lot of what SD is saying. I'm sure that your wife is struggling with some pretty significant doubts right now, and she needs you to be proactive, not reactive.

Im not saying that any of this is your fault, but it is yours to work on, not your wife's. Where she is able to step up and help, great. It still falls to you to do the heavy lifting.

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ng95901 » Thu May 25, 2017 8:44 pm

“Having a partialism or another unusual sexual interest does not mean that there’s anything inherently wrong with you. It has taken a while, but psychiatrists and psychologists have increasingly come to recognize that fetishes and other paraphilias do not necessarily represent disordered behavior unless they cause severe personal distress or result in harm to others…”

Dr. Justin Lehmiller from his book, The Psychology of Human Sexuality
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby seeking perspective » Thu May 25, 2017 9:01 pm

My understanding of fetishes and partialisms is that this is not a fantasy issue. This is about essential wiring that shapes the physiological nature of sexual response. Porn use in these cases is driven by the specificity of the wiring. It is not a matter of fantasy that is driven by porn use. Porn use is wrong either way, but I do think it helps to understand that porn use isn't just a one-size-fits-all sin.

Your wife needs support and information--but it is possible to build strong sexual intimacy in your marriage.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby be64 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:53 pm

I haven't replied to this thread for a while and I haven't read many of the pages so forgive me if this has already been discussed. My question is what is your expectation for an erection? I ask this because for most young men erections come instantly with the thought of sex and don't need to work to maintain an erection. However an older man may require more direct penis stimulation and continued direct stimulation in order to maintain it. So I'm wonder when you lose an erection if it is because you are doing nothing to maintain it and you expect it to just be there with no effort.

While a fantasy may not be the same as a fetish, I have sexual fantasies that really turn me on, but I don't use them to get aroused for sex. During sex I am arroused by the pleasure I'm feeling. My sexual response is driven by pleasure, not by fantasy or fetish or porn. I would suggest you focus on pleasure rather than fetish. Pleasure in itself should be enough to bring on erection and intercourse.

I would like to offer some tough love but what I'd liked to say would probable not be appreciated on this forum. Suffice it to say that I would urge you to both get naked and as soon as you have an erection which it seems you do get occasionally, penetrate immediately before there is a chance for it to subside. I think you need to "just do it" and quite analyzing it.
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ng95901 » Fri May 26, 2017 12:14 am

be64 wrote: My sexual response is driven by pleasure, not by fantasy or fetish or porn. I would suggest you focus on pleasure rather than fetish. Pleasure in itself should be enough to bring on erection and intercourse...

I think you need to "just do it" and quite analyzing it...


His is not either. His is instead driven by the formation of a neutral cue associated with WAM aspects. As seeking perspective has also so eloquently pointed out, this is not some 'fantasy' issue, nor is it an issue he suddenly developed by looking at Porn. It IS as she states, about the essential wiring that shaped the physiological nature of his response. It requires the assistance of someone who has some degree of expertise.

So simply stated, trying to apply the 'Nike' Just do it approach simply isn't going to suddenly make it all better. This is a bit more complicated than that and if we were all really that simple, then we could in theory just tell those that use the DSM-5 that they could just chuck it in the trash. Instead, we could just advise silly little children who are traumatized by abuse, or lazy vets who come home with troubled experiences that even though they think they aren't capable of going to school or work they should just quit analyzing their psychological responses to their specific stimuli and 'Just do it'...
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby JD91 » Fri May 26, 2017 4:18 pm

Thank you again for all the responses. There's some really good insight here.

First of all, I made an appointment with the counselor/therapist who has published on sexual paraphilias. My wife and I will go together early in June. I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say.

ng95901 wrote:While researching and writing for our blog, Foot Fetish 101, we had the pleasure of conversing with and and in some cases, interviewing couples over the years who have reported many of the same issues that you have described here. Once they began working with an MFT familiar with partialisms (podophilia in this case) and sexual cue formation, many of the issues dissipated. As they progressed, did some required 'homework' of their own by researching together to understand the nature of the cue and how it formed, they moved on to have a happy and productive marriage bed with some aspects of said cue incorporated. It is my firm belief that you and your wife can do the same...


Realizing that it's a cue that that was imprinted at a young age, rather than a dark porn-induced fantasy, already makes me feel better about the situation. I could definitely tell you exactly how this cue was formed when I was beginning puberty. I remember the very first pie-in-the-face images I saw and the arousal I got from seeing them. I remember prior to puberty when I found it strangely interesting to see other kids getting messy, and then during puberty when I discovered that it was REALLY interesting whenever a girl got messy. These are things I will probably get into in the counseling sessions.

sunny-dee wrote:I would be really hesitant to indulge in this. This is the same reasoning that a lot of husbands use for justifying sex acts they see in porn -- if their wife would only do X, then I wouldn't need to fantasize with porn.

The fact is you *did* try this, it did not result in sex, and it wasn't like you imagined.

Also, insisting that your wife perform your fantasy -- fantasies which are not about her -- is essentially objectifying her. Sex in that scenario isn't about intimacy; it's about wish fulfillment.


Sunny-dee, I'm very sorry about your situation. It sounds awful. I want to clarify something regarding my situation.

I'm not suggesting that indulging in WAM with DW would result in PIV the same night as a result. I absolutely don't think that would happen. What I mean is that removing all WAM from the "forbidden" category might help me to stop thinking about it so much, and long-term that might help us progress toward PIV sex.

Also, I wouldn't say the "fantasies" are not about her. As it's been pointed out, this isn't a fantasy I developed from watching porn. This is an imprint from childhood. To me, seeing a woman messy is equally as arousing as seeing her naked. So not being able to see DW messy feels, in a lot of ways, like it would for a man whose wife won't let him see her naked. I realize that's not a perfect correlation, and I don't say that to imply that she's sinning or wrong to not feel comfortable with my fetish. I'm just trying to convey how it feels for me, even as I know my feelings aren't what should guide our decisions.

I also want to point out that I haven't asked her to get as messy as models do in the WAM porn that I've regrettably seen. All I've proposed to her is that we play some sort of silly game, fully clothed, where we ask each other funny questions and pie each other for wrong answers, using some simple whipped cream on a paper plate. It's the kind of thing that's done all the time for youth groups, charities, or fun. I wouldn't expect it to get weird or sexual, especially not the first time we were to do it. I would just want it to be a fun, goofy thing.

Hopefully this helps to see where I'm coming from, and why it seems to me like it shouldn't be a big deal. I feel like we've built it up as this big, scary, dark side to who I am, but ultimately it's no different from the way I particularly like how she looks in certain clothes, in certain lighting, or with her hair a certain way. I just also enjoy how she looks "wearing" pie, if that makes any sense. It seems like it'd be the same as asking to see her wear a certain lingerie; it's just that this is more unusual, and thus I can understand why it makes her uncomfortable.

be64 wrote:I haven't replied to this thread for a while and I haven't read many of the pages so forgive me if this has already been discussed. My question is what is your expectation for an erection? I ask this because for most young men erections come instantly with the thought of sex and don't need to work to maintain an erection. However an older man may require more direct penis stimulation and continued direct stimulation in order to maintain it. So I'm wonder when you lose an erection if it is because you are doing nothing to maintain it and you expect it to just be there with no effort.


We definitely do everything we can to keep it up, including direct stimulation. But the last several times we've tried to be intimate, even when I felt very much in the mood at first, I got no erection at all the whole time. So there was nothing even to start with.

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ng95901
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby ng95901 » Fri May 26, 2017 9:30 pm

JD91 wrote:Realizing that it's a cue that that was imprinted at a young age, rather than a dark porn-induced fantasy, already makes me feel better about the situation. I could definitely tell you exactly how this cue was formed when I was beginning puberty. I remember the very first pie-in-the-face images I saw and the arousal I got from seeing them. I remember prior to puberty when I found it strangely interesting to see other kids getting messy, and then during puberty when I discovered


I'm glad we were able to help provide you with some clarity with that. While you're waiting on the therapist appointment, you may want to pick up some useful reading material that might be beneficial to you and your wife.

My recommendations would be:

The Psychology of Human Sexuality by Dr. Justin Lehmiller

Sex, Fetish and Him by Jackie Castro MA LMFT

I have both of these in my personal reference library. Both of these are excellent resources and are readily available on Amazon.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles...”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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be64
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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby be64 » Sat May 27, 2017 9:38 am

The point I was trying to make is that if you get an erection which from what has been said here seems to happen at least once in a while, use it to penetrate immediately before it is lost, then perhaps once there the excitement and pleasure will keep things going.
The secret to having everything is believing you already do!

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Re: Unconsummated Marriage

Postby poetess » Sat May 27, 2017 10:47 am

be64, that would depend on whether his wife is OK with that idea, I think.
Marriage--what a wonderful image of Christ's love for His bride!


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