Igniting Female Desire

What science can tell us about sex.
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Robbed Seahawk
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Robbed Seahawk » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:10 pm

At what point does such a person start taking risks?


I don't know. I used to fear riding roller coasters. Now the fear is switched to thrill. I don't know how that happened. Fear and thrill are roughly the same thing, but just evaluated differently somehow. At some point I just pushed through and then got to the point of enjoying the rush.

I'm not sure the same applies in relationships and identity fears, but maybe it does. I'm told that the ability to self-regulate our feelings of anxiety is a key to basic maturity. "I feel really weird right now, but I trust that it'll turn out OK as I try x. It could be awesome. Here goes!"

After we reap the rewards a few times, maybe it gets easier.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:06 pm

MayDayGirl wrote:Good stuff, Seahawk........would you mind telling us exactly what you mean by a 'risk-averse person?' I'm curious because I would describe both myself and my DH that way.


MayDayGirl,

In reading your posts these years I have a picture of you as NOT risk averse in your marriage relationship. A risk averse woman would never seek new adventures in bed, but you have a closet full of role-play costumes. You have described a woman who will go to any length to please her husband, and to inject fun, vitality, excitement and newness into her marriage bed.

If RS's theory holds true then that would mean that you are either not risk averse in his definition, or you perceive absolutely no risk in pursuing high-adventure in sex, probably because you have an excellent relationship with an excellent man who would rather die than criticize your efforts.

Likewise your husband is either not risk averse or perceives no risk in putting himself out for you, for the same reasons. Likely you are the "excellent wife" of Proverbs 31:10-12, the one who is so hard to find. From what you have written, that sounds about right.

Proverbs 31
10 An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is above jewels.
11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain
12 She does him good and not evil, all the days of her life.

This describes a wife for whom a man can put himself out and never fear that she will reject or ridicule him, so if she asks him to pull on the Superman costume and cape, and leap over the bed for her, he will do it without hesitation because there is NO WAY she would ever make him regret it.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby MayDayGirl » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:27 pm

Thanks Seahawk, for putting so much time and thought into your response. I need to chew on that awhile!

Job, you are a true sweetheart. Yes, I am not risk-averse in my marriage relationship when it comes to sex. I do see myself as risk-averse in certain life situations. I'd never jump out of a plane or do anything even mildly life/limb threatening. I don't enjoy confrontation, although I will do it when pushed, usually by e-mail (nastygrams, as I like to call them). And I don't take criticism well........ask my DH :lol: , so I have zero concerns about approaching him about anything new in the bedroom. He's all for that!

I'm going to think on some of these things a bit. When I initially read Seahawk's post, I was thinking, "well, DH is certainly risk-averse, except when it comes to the stock market!" Yup, I'm going to think about this for a bit and see if any of it relates to my MB>

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby subconsciousness » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:40 pm

Job29Man wrote:In reading your posts these years I have a picture of you as NOT risk averse in your marriage relationship. A risk averse woman would never seek new adventures in bed, but you have a closet full of role-play costumes. You have described a woman who will go to any length to please her husband, and to inject fun, vitality, excitement and newness into her marriage bed.

If RS's theory holds true then that would mean that you are either not risk averse in his definition, or you perceive absolutely no risk in pursuing high-adventure in sex, probably because you have an excellent relationship with an excellent man who would rather die than criticize your efforts.


Actually, risk aversion doesn't necessarily mean that someone won't seek new experiences. Risk aversion simply means that in seeking new experiences, one generally avoids those new experiences that have higher levels of risk.

Although, I'm not certain that RS's theory does hold. We know from sex surveys that while the image of the adventurous sexy single seems to pervade our society, the reality is the opposite. Most sex surveys tend to show that those in long term relationships (re: marriage) tend to have more sex, report better satisfaction in their sex lives and report more experimentation in sexual activities. It appears that the safety of a stable relationship enables one to try new things with greater confidence. The mistake here is to conflate the level of activity and the kind of activities with the level of sexual arousal (which is what the original article was talking about). As Chivers noted, the overt data makes no sense unless we were to assume that human females desired sex with bonobos.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby jokerman » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:15 pm

subconsciousness wrote: It appears that the safety of a stable relationship enables one to try new things with greater confidence.



Schnarch observes the opposite. He reports sexual boredom as common to long-term relationships. And typically one partner, or both, unwilling to expand the sexual repertoire.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Leah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:35 pm

Robbed Seahawk wrote:
MayDayGirl wrote:Good stuff, Seahawk........would you mind telling us exactly what you mean by a 'risk-averse person?' I'm curious because I would describe both myself and my DH that way.


I think a risk-averse person is one who chooses to avoid what he fears rather than pursue what he desires.


Risk I understand. My whole last four years have been all about risk.

Big dividends in personal growth and confidence. Marriage, not so much.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Robbed Seahawk » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:47 am

Most sex surveys tend to show that those in long term relationships (re: marriage) tend to have more sex, report better satisfaction in their sex lives and report more experimentation in sexual activities. It appears that the safety of a stable relationship enables one to try new things with greater confidence.


I've seen these studies, too. I can see how this would be correct, as well.

But it's like the original article said: bad relationships are negative for people's sexual desire, but good relationships only meet an initial condition. They don't guarantee a steady supply of sexual desire, just like a pilot light doesn't heat the house. That's why I think that if adventure of some kind is not intentionally injected into the relationship, then security, longevity and familiarity will choke eroticism. It happens in many marriages. It's why many people tend to view marriage as a passion-killer, which is how it's often depicted in novels and film (a recent example is Mr and Mrs Smith).

I officiated a marriage between two dear people I know very well. I knew them to be a committed, highly principled and very upright couple. I also saw trouble. In the wedding sermon I told them it's not enough for them to be committed. They were committed to commitment, but not committed to making it joyful and fun. There's nothing beautiful about a marriage made of grim determination. To this day, their marriage is a grind. For all their morality, they are perverting the purpose of marriage by treating it as mere morality. Their view of faithfulness is more about what they don't do, to not cheat on each other, than about what that should do, to delight in each other.

I care about them a lot and it bugs me to no end. It's one of the reasons I'm here, I guess. A lame Christian marriage is a travesty. I hate it almost worse than divorce.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Paul B » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:47 pm

One of the things this study may be showing is that, for women, physical/genital arousal and mental arousal are two very different things which can happen independently of each other. That means her body might be past ready, while her mind is not - or, her mind is screaming for it, but her body is not aroused enough to do it easily or painlessly.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby gulfcoastgal » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:24 pm

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this thread Seek. It's going to take some time to wade through the article. I may opt for the cliff notes version. If nothing else comes from it, I think Paul is spot on with his observation. I have recently discovered this about myself and have written about it here and here. I'm wondering if this is the underlying reason why so many women can enjoy ML without having to orgasm?

Some of y'all have hit on some interesting theories. I still have yet to see a study that links personality traits and sex drive. I know it's intuitively appealing to think adventurous outside the bedroom=adventurous inside the bedroom. But, it certainly doesn't bear out in our relationship.

Someone mentioned working through initial resistance. DH does this. He'll often tease me about being aroused and I'll think "No, I'm not." Then before I know it, we're ML and I think "how'd this happen?" :mrgreen: I initiate, but at some point during ML DH's dominant instincts (not to be confused with domineering) take over and I become more receptive. There are occassions when I am determined to maintain control, but never seem to be able to hold on to that role. We refer to it as driving. DH will ask “Who’s driving?” Even when I drive, DH somehow manages to navigate. He's like an adorable puppy with a chew toy moving me around until he finds a comfy spot and settles down for the night.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:32 pm

I just finished with an excellent discussion with a TMB brother about this very topic. We both agree that we'd like to see our wives initiate. It makes us feel "desired". It makes us feel "desirable". But we also agreed that our wives are very, very responsive in bed once we get them going. So we are wondering if we have any real case to complain that our wives don't initiate, especially given that neither wife refuses? Maybe that's like a fellow dining at the Ritz and he complains that the coffee was not quite hot enough. Dude! You are eating at the Ritz! Shut.up!
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Leah » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:49 pm

You know, this might not be the right word picture. Even a Mom-and-Pop establishment strives to have a top-flight product. I don't think that's what you have in mind.

I think there are some ways husbands can use leadership skills to get what they want.
Leah

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby jokerman » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:19 pm

Job29Man wrote:I just finished with an excellent discussion with a TMB brother about this very topic. We both agree that we'd like to see our wives initiate. It makes us feel "desired". It makes us feel "desirable". But we also agreed that our wives are very, very responsive in bed once we get them going. So we are wondering if we have any real case to complain that our wives don't initiate, especially given that neither wife refuses? Maybe that's like a fellow dining at the Ritz and he complains that the coffee was not quite hot enough. Dude! You are eating at the Ritz! Shut.up!


Schnarch is one of the few authors who says yes, the "loves to have sex but never initiates" mindset is indeed less than optimal. The spouse who waits for things to happen is not fully in tune with his or her desire. It is "safer" to go along with the HD spouse's initiation than to stick one's neck out and be vulnerable and transparent.

Using the same analogy -- if you dined at the Ritz a dozen times per year, and never got hot coffee, you would eventually wonder why they don't care enough to make the situation better for customers (since they're already on record as pledging themselves to your happiness).

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby StillInLove » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:09 am

Great thread, and responses. I also am thankful for the reminders from Schnarch Jokerman.
But, even though I wish I could get the response from a bowl of popcorn like Job, sometimes it is a hit or miss, and usually miss.
I am very analytical, A + B = C, and it will always be that way, but, with women, or at least my DW, sometimes I get D, E, F, or even ZZZ's.

To assume that a wife will respond given certain conditions assumes they are alike, and even though I am proud that my DW is not a cookie cuttler woman, there are times that difference can be very frustrating. She has even started talks about how I expect to get her aroused by doing what worked in the past. But then I want to yell, "well will you tell me what will work this time!", but I haven't yet.

There is much more I want to say, but shouldn't, but you get the idea.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Barbarah-Hephizibah » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:31 am

Schnarch is one of the few authors who says yes, the "loves to have sex but never initiates" mindset is indeed less than optimal.


I wonder if the marital structure has something to do with the “less than optimal” mindset. My husband and I are equal partners, submitting to one another. And…co-initiating in the marriage bed seems normal and right, after pressing through some stuff with God.

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Gals, tell us before it's too late!

Postby Job29Man » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:08 pm

Thank you for that info, and it may well be true...
But we only have threescore and ten to figure it all out, and if you want to figure it out before you can't stand up and do anything about it, then we may have much less than 70 years. Who wants to figure women out when he's 50? or 60? or 80? By then you maybe can't make wood like when it mattered? So I place the responsibility squarely back onto the shoulders of the women... Wives who are holding onto your "mystery", tell your man NOW what makes you tick because once you get to Heaven there will be no more marriage or giving in marriage. Stop being "mysterious", tell him how you work and what will ignite the flame of your desire. He wants to boff your eyes out in THIS lifetime. If you wait till Paradise it's all too late, there's no more "boffing" to be done.

I am not saying this in jest... not in any way. There is no time for subtlety, this lifetime requires "in your face sexuality". Give it up while there's still time, or you can become suddenly relaxed with your sensuality when you are... dead... and in Heaven. The choice is yours.

Job
Last edited by Job29Man on Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Gals, tell us before it's too late!

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:37 pm

Job29Man wrote:Wives who are holding onto your "mystery", tell your man NOW what makes you tick because once you get to Heaven there will be no more marriage or giving in marriage.

I think that's sort of the point of this article, though. Female sexuality is a mystery even to us. I have theories as to why that is, but they're just that - theories.

Meanwhile, I think it's interesting that we never really made it to this part of the article:

Meana spoke about two elements that contribute to her thinking: first, a great deal of data showing that, as measured by the frequency of fantasy, masturbation and sexual activity, women have a lower sex drive than men, and second, research suggesting that within long-term relationships, women are more likely than men to lose interest in sex. Meana posits that it takes a greater jolt, a more significant stimulus, to switch on a woman’s libido than a man’s. “If I don’t love cake as much as you,” she told me, “my cake better be kick-butt to get me excited to eat it.” And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more important, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out.
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Re: Gals, tell us before it's too late!

Postby Leah » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:49 pm

^^^This may well be what defines the difference between men and women. Men seem to have "cookies" in their brains. They are able to create shortcuts in their thinking to help them do the routine things like go to work every day. They seem to be onward and upward kinds of beings. Women are automatically multitaskers by virtue of what they do in taking care of a home and children. Men are javelins and women are jugglers. Maybe the path from point A to point B in a woman's brain might have a lot of little sub-points along the way.
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Re: Gals, tell us before it's too late!

Postby jokerman » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:54 pm

Seekryt wrote: And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more important, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out.


This isn't a problem at our house, since I own a time machine and continually send us back to 1986 so we can date all over again.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:58 pm

What I am asking is... to whatever extent you ladies revel in "the mystery", or feel comfortable in "the woman's prerogative"... give it up. Life is too short. Just come out and say "If you really want to ignite my fire, do A...B...C... and don't forget D." We are sadly too busy earning a living, and dealing with the stress of bosses and the marketplace to always have the energy of intellect to "unravel the mystery." It's not that we are unwilling or unable... it's just that... well shoot ladies, c'mon give a man a break. Am I faithful to you? Would I die to defend you? Would I kill myself with working 16 hours a day to support you and our family? Yes? OK... before I fall in bed unconscious from exhaustion today... could you please just tell me the "answer?" I'm not good at puzzles and am asking for some help here. Please?
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:04 pm

No, but, honestly, Job - we often don't know. It's not some "women are mysterious" deal.

Frankly, I read that aritcle and went "WHOA! Doesn't THAT make sense!" Seriously - I'm 34, been having sex for eons, and I'm a lifer here on TMB. Ok, 4 years, but still. Same thing. My point being, it's not like I've been ignoring that I'm LD, I've been actively researching and pondering - and I was still surprised at a few of the things pointed out.
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