Igniting Female Desire

What science can tell us about sex.
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Seekryt
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Re: Gals, tell us before it's too late!

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:06 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:
This may well be what defines the difference between men and women. Men seem to have "cookies" in their brains. They are able to create shortcuts in their thinking to help them do the routine things like go to work every day. They seem to be onward and upward kinds of beings. Women are automatically multitaskers by virtue of what they do in taking care of a home and children. Men are javelins and women are jugglers. Maybe the path from point A to point B in a woman's brain might have a lot of little sub-points along the way.


Yes... that sounds right, too. This is one of my little theories, that we have sub-points, as you so eloquently described it, and also that we've trained ourselves out of our sexuality.
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Re: Gals, tell us before it's too late!

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:07 pm

jokerman wrote:
Seekryt wrote: And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more important, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out.


This isn't a problem at our house, since I own a time machine and continually send us back to 1986 so we can date all over again.


...and you're holding out on us because....????

Tonight my mullet needs a trim.


I have no comment.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby jokerman » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:17 pm

Schnarch also talks about "who chooses who" as being a potential problem later in the marriage. He describes couples where one partner may have pushed harder than the other to get married. Years later, the partner who pushed -- and is also typically the HD partner -- is wondering if the other spouse has ever truly wanted or desired them. The LD spouse, meanwhile, is content with the status quo. For the LD to "let go" and allow him or herself to want is pretty vulnerable and scary. So the cycle will likely continue until one of them starts to express dissatisfaction with how its been going.

I don't know if this article is suggesting that women's need to be pursued is stronger than men's, or if men were just not part of the study.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:23 pm

Seekryt wrote:No, but, honestly, Job - we often don't know. It's not some "women are mysterious" deal.

Frankly, I read that aritcle and went "WHOA! Doesn't THAT make sense!" Seriously - I'm 34, been having sex for eons, and I'm a lifer here on TMB. Ok, 4 years, but still. Same thing. My point being, it's not like I've been ignoring that I'm LD, I've been actively researching and pondering - and I was still surprised at a few of the things pointed out.


My Dear Friend Seekryt,

If you feel that I am unfair in any way, tell me here, or PM me (you know me IRL). I'll listen.

I don't mean to address women who have "special case" husbands. Every husband should be faithful and generous, sensitive and vigorous in his marriage bed. If I'm not saying that the right way just point me in the right direction and I'll try to improve.

Love,

Job and Sarah
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:30 pm

jokerman wrote:Schnarch also talks about "who chooses who" as being a potential problem later in the marriage. He describes couples where one partner may have pushed harder than the other to get married. Years later, the partner who pushed -- and is also typically the HD partner -- is wondering if the other spouse has ever truly wanted or desired them. The LD spouse, meanwhile, is content with the status quo. For the LD to "let go" and allow him or herself to want is pretty vulnerable and scary. So the cycle will likely continue until one of them starts to express dissatisfaction with how its been going.


Yes. A someone who is LD, I need safety to explore and examine my sexuality. Interestingly, we both expressed dissatisfaction, but in strongly different ways and about different issues, although still sexual.

I don't know if this article is suggesting that women's need to be pursued is stronger than men's, or if men were just not part of the study.


I seem to recall that this last part of the study only included women, but the suggestion seems to be that the supposition that women are more sexually satisfied by a good relationship is incorrect.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:33 pm

Job29Man wrote:If you feel that I am unfair in any way, tell me here, or PM me (you know me IRL).

No, I don't think you're being unfair. Not at all. Maybe I phrased this wrong.

I'm saying - women are not trying to keep our arousal process a secret. The beginning part of this study illustrates that really well - although the female sexual response was much broader than the male's, the females were unaware of it and couldn't express it.

Does that make more sense?
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby jokerman » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:42 pm

Seekryt wrote:
I seem to recall that this last part of the study only included women, but the suggestion seems to be that the supposition that women are more sexually satisfied by a good relationship is incorrect.



Well (back to the original post) -- what lights the fire? Adventure? A very intentional effort by the DH to be romantic? The introduction of new things (either sexual or not) into the relationship? Transparency?

Or, maybe, conflict and uncertainty in some degree? I say "uncertainty" because that is one of the hallmarks of the dating relationship (and even of people who pursue the thrill of an affair). Perhaps the marriage needs that difficult stage of growth and uncertainty that comes from two people morphing the relationship into something new and more workable. It is scary but at least it is moving beyond boredom.

I think I'm rambling now.

I'm still trying to get my head around the concepts here. It sounds like a very academic explanation of why women want the guy to be really macho and unpredictable and to keep things new. Is the romance and passion on the guy's shoulders more than the woman's? Does her desire depend on what he does as a lover?

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:43 pm

Seekryt wrote:I'm saying - women are not trying to keep our arousal process a secret. The beginning part of this study illustrates that really well - although the female sexual response was much broader than the male's, the females were unaware of it and couldn't express it.

Does that make more sense?


Friend Seekryt,

It makes more sense, but let's look at it from a practical standpoint. If female sexual response is in anyway quizzical to females, and it is a TOTAL mystery to males WHO is it that bears the greater burden to investigate, and understand the female sexual response? I propose that we men cannot be held to a higher standard of understanding of the female sexual response than the women themselves can be held. The burden of teaching the husbands about that sexual response rests more upon the females who feel that response than upon the husbands who are helplessly clueless IMHO. Or am I missing something or misunderstanding what is being said here?

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Leah » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:58 pm

Job29Man wrote:What I am asking is... to whatever extent you ladies revel in "the mystery", or feel comfortable it "the woman's prerogative"... give it up. Life is too short.


Job29Man wrote:I don't mean to address women who have "special case" husbands. Every husband should be faithful and generous, sensitive and vigorous in his marriage bed.


Job29Man wrote:let's look at it from a practical standpoint. If female sexual response is in anyway quizzical to females, and it is a TOTAL mystery to males WHO is it that bears the greater burden to investigate, and understand the female sexual response? I propose that we men cannot be held to a higher standard of understanding of the female sexual response than the women themselves can be held. The burden of teaching the husbands about that sexual response rests more upon the females who feel that response than upon the husbands who are helplessly clueless IMHO. Or am I missing something or misunderstanding what is being said here?


I am one of those with a "special case husband."

Here's some perspective: Based on your testimony, you and Sarah have more sex in six months than I have had in my entire marriage. That would be the sum total of my experience. If you want to narrow that down to meaningful encounters, then you and Sarah have more sex in one week than I have had meaningful experiences in well over half my life.

Crunch the numbers.

The law of averages is not on my side. The likelihood that I'm going to have anything helpful to contribute to the research is looking slimmer all the time.
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“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis


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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:02 pm

(Job29man weeps as he reads... wipes tears off the laptop keyboard...)
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Leah » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:09 pm

Job29Man wrote:(Job29man weeps as he reads... wipes tears off the laptop keyboard...)


*handing Job29Man a tissue*

It's a leadership issue, really. Unless a husband can do the Philippians 2 thing and lay aside his right to think like a man, there will be problems in TMB. Take it to the bank. If hubby is not able to enjoy the journey from point A to point O with all the little sub-points in between, he's not going to get a lot of information to help him.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:12 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:
It's a leadership issue, really. Unless a husband can do the Philippians 2 thing and lay aside his right to think like a man, there will be problems in TMB. Take it to the bank. If hubby is not able to enjoy the journey from point A to point O with all the little sub-points in between, he's not going to get a lot of information to help him.


Well said, and I think that links in to joker's post in another thread about discussing sexual issues with a partner.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Seekryt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:21 pm

jokerman wrote:[Well (back to the original post) -- what lights the fire?

I would say, maybe - pursuit, and feeling captivating. On the rare occasions that I have a drive spike, those seem to be present. It's usually focused around feeling like DH chooses me. Here's an example - after reading an article here on TMB about a man in bondage to lust, I expressed a longing to DH that I wanted to be wanted that strongly. I felt so substandard in every way. He shared that at this point, his desire for me far supercedes the desire he felt for porn. ZING!

I think I'm rambling now.

Welcome to our little club.

I'm still trying to get my head around the concepts here. It sounds like a very academic explanation of why women want the guy to be really macho and unpredictable and to keep things new. Is the romance and passion on the guy's shoulders more than the woman's? Does her desire depend on what he does as a lover?


I don't think it's machismo or unpredictability, or even romance. It's the feeling, maybe, that you are the center of his desire.

On his shoulders? Well, I don't know. I would guess that depends on the relationship. Of course, I can't figure out how to make me feel like I'm being pursued if he doesn't do it, so maybe it is.

I can't speak to every woman's desire, but if we're talking "lover" as a title rather than "skillz possessed as", then maybe.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby GrowingDaily » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:21 pm

I am so sorry, Leah. That just makes me mad....

My take on the article, as a woman, a psychologist and a Christian, is that possibly God made women more "pliable" sexually so that they could easily fit with their man sexually after marriage. Whatever turns him on will fairly easily be interesting to her as well. The idea kind of reminds me of the way newborn babies make all the sounds of all the languages in the world, they can easily learn any of them up to a certain age. As they are exposed to their native language, the other sounds drop out and the native ones become prominent. Possibly, then, a woman's sexual response being naturally more broad-based makes the matching up with her man easier.

As for who is responsible for finding out what pleases her, I think that's a shared responsibility. Probably at the beginning, (when coincidentally the man tends to have a stronger drive) he needs to generally take the lead in finding out what pleases her (as an aside I believe God may have given men that strong of a drive early in life so that the propagation of the species is encouraged) I find it interesting that women tend to peak in their interest in sex at a later age. To me, it seems that could be God's way of keeping the marriage bed exciting, as once a woman gets going she can often surpass her husband in interest and creativity. This is also often at a time when the baby-making days are beginning to be behind her, thus allowing her to have more energy for the MB. His plan seems to be for a lifelong exciting exploration in the MB, possibly led more by the man at first, and more by the woman later. Just my current working theory....take it for what it's worth! (possibly not much, a LOT of conjecture and generalization here....) I just always find it so enthralling to look at current research and see how it might fit into God's plan. Often, one can predict where the research ends up just by reading The Book....all we're doing is discovering His wonderful ways (though you can't tell your average secular psychologist that....that's too hard on the ego!!)

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby littledinobug » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:33 am

Job29Man wrote:What I am asking is... to whatever extent you ladies revel in "the mystery", or feel comfortable in "the woman's prerogative"... give it up. Life is too short. Just come out and say "If you really want to ignite my fire, do A...B...C... and don't forget D." We are sadly too busy earning a living, and dealing with the stress of bosses and the marketplace to always have the energy of intellect to "unravel the mystery." It's not that we are unwilling or unable... it's just that... well shoot ladies, c'mon give a man a break. Am I faithful to you? Would I die to defend you? Would I kill myself with working 16 hours a day to support you and our family? Yes? OK... before I fall in bed unconscious from exhaustion today... could you please just tell me the "answer?" I'm not good at puzzles and am asking for some help here. Please?



Have you ever thought that 9x out of 10 (or whatever...statistic pulled out of butt there I'll admit it) Women are taught from an early age that

1: Sex is bad

2: Real ladies don't like sex they don't want sex they only have sex as a duty

3: If you enjoy sex you're a slut.

4: Touch yourself there and you're going to Hell.

and by the way, that's the general message society gives. yeah you'll see all these promiscuous chicks out there at the bars with the guys but guess what, they're known as sluts, whores, all sorts of nasty names. That kinda thing gets shoved down our throats ALL..THE..TIME

You like sex, you're a slut. Married or not. Women aren't supposed to like it.

So with teachings like that, how the HE double hockey sticks are we supposed to know what turns us on? You know, since we're guilted and shamed about our sexuality from the day we're born almost. (Unless we luck out and get awesome parents...but then we have society to deal with)
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby jokerman » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:47 am

"Mystery" is fine, and in fact is essential. Humans thrive on mystery, which is why we wrap presents or suggest that engaged couples maintain the mystery until their wedding night or ask people to avoid spoiling novels and movies. We need to find our certain things for ourselves so we can enjoy the anticipation and discover things in their own time.

What bothers us is when our spouses don't seem to be in touch with some sensual side of themselves. If my spouse hasn't developed an awareness of what she wants or likes, how am I supposed to know what to do? Sometimes we work ever harder and try to get them interested in this or that (vibes, role playing, etc.), and it just allows them to avoid making their own decisions about what they want, and it gets more frustrating. As an example -- I can teach someone to do certain things with a basketball, but if they haven't decided they even want to understand the game in the first place, all of my efforts are fairly pointless. You need to challenge people to get in touch with something very fundamental in the first place before you can make any progress. Schnarch talks about the necessity of "wanting to want." I still haven't figured out if Schnarch's theories match up with the research from the original post.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby Job29Man » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:00 pm

Along the lines of Jokerman's post... in a healthy marriage with good communication and generosity I LOVE a bit of mystery. It's when the mystery becomes a roadblock that it's no longer fun. If a wife would say "I'm not sure what I want or would like. Let's explore it together. I'm willing to be surprised, and I won't shoot you down. I'll be open to your fun-loving leadership and innovations in bed." That's a healthy way to deal with the "I don't know what I want" mystery.

If, on the other hand she is saying "I don't know what I want or like, and I don't want you to press the issue with me. I'm not willing to let my mind go free and explore my sexuality with you. Just do the basics and don't bother me with romance or adventure" welllll.... that's a different deal.

If a woman has something like the first response, good on her!
If the second... that needs improvement IMO.
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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby DaWoodkie » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:13 pm

StillInLove wrote:I am very analytical, A + B = C, and it will always be that way, but, with women, or at least my DW, sometimes I get D, E, F, or even ZZZ's.

To assume that a wife will respond given certain conditions assumes they are alike, and even though I am proud that my DW is not a cookie cuttler woman, there are times that difference can be very frustrating. She has even started talks about how I expect to get her aroused by doing what worked in the past. But then I want to yell, "well will you tell me what will work this time!", but I haven't yet.


My wife is the same exact way and I actually have asked her, "Will you PLEASE tell me what will work? Obviously what I am doing this time isn't doing it for you!"

She just looked at me and shrugged. I have to believe like Seekryt says that she really doesn't know herself. It seems ludicrous to me, but there it is. <heavy sigh>

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby jokerman » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:29 pm

littledinobug wrote:So with teachings like that, how the HE double hockey sticks are we supposed to know what turns us on? You know, since we're guilted and shamed about our sexuality from the day we're born almost. (Unless we luck out and get awesome parents...but then we have society to deal with)

But even the tamest women's magazine carries articles about the personal and relational benefits of enjoying sex. It's always a topic on mainstream shows like Oprah Winfrey, and in Christian magazines and books, that sex is okay, sex is good, sex is bonding. It's been five decades since the sexual revolution, and the "sex is bad" teaching has been a minority view for a long time.

I think the problem is deeper. To understand your turn-ons requires introspection and a comfort with yourself and with intimacy. If you are unwilling to let go, you shouldn't blame "society." Instead, look at your own fears and hurts and your own intimacy barriers. This is hard work. Perhaps women have a deeper or more complex psychology than men, and it is therefore harder to get to the root of the issues for many of them.

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Re: Igniting Female Desire

Postby DaWoodkie » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:48 pm

littledinobug wrote:You like sex, you're a slut. Married or not. Women aren't supposed to like it.

I don't know how true this still is, but my statistics would be just as smelly as yours :D

My daughter (26 yo) was raised with "sex is AWESOME!!!!! as long as it is in context and that context is marriage." I was a youth pastor for several years and that was always the message I preached and so did the other pastors at our church. Most of my friends who were raising their kids pretty much went with the same message. I will be the last to say that society doesn't still have a bit of a double standard, but let's face it, those promiscuous chicks out at the bars really are being sluttish and acting like whores. SO ARE THE MEN! I don't believe it has as much to do with "If you like sex, you're a slut." It has to do with if you go have sex with a different guy every night then your a slut. If a guy has sex with a different woman every night he is what me son calls a "man whore."

My real point here is that I have talked with my daughter and son-in-law who were both home-schooled (so sheltered a little from societal effects) and were taught that sex is great, that it is God-ordained, God-pleasing and God-intended for pleasure and intimacy. Their pre-marriage counseling included the books Sheet Music", Intended for Pleasure and The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women to name just a few. Guess what? They are still facing the same old dilemma of him being the HDP, her being the LDP and he not having a clue how to light her fire because the way is constantly changing.

He shook his head and asked me "Dad, does it ever get easier?" I laughed and told him I would let him know....

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