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An amazing article

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:28 am
by doug-h
Really not my favorite writer, but this article should be required reading for anyone in a formal, or informal leadership role in a Church.

Re: An amazing article

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:01 am
by bgavtek1
This is very good. Boys need to learn to be gentlemen very early on. Chivalry is a lost art and would have fixed all of the situations that he presented. My dad was the prefect example and I am so thankful that he is my dad. The few times he raised his voice at us kids he apologized and he NEVER raise his voice at my mom. He was always very gentle with her. I have three brothers and we all learned to open doors and be gentlemen very early on. I was something in our family that was looked upon as part of growing up and was never made fun of. Men need to stand up and take responsibility and keep each other accountable.

Re: An amazing article

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:18 am
by seeking perspective
It is a good article.

My first reaction was to think how sad it was that he seemed to be so shocked after hearing all these stories from women. I've heard countless stories like these--sometimes from women who have left such marriages and all too often, from women who have stayed. I have heard how a church can be a great support in helping women pursue safety, wholeness, and healing, and I've heard how a church can perpetuate the things that make a woman feel like she has no choice. I've heard these stories time after time after time throughout my life, so it's hard for me to understand why anyone would be shocked.

My second reaction, though, was to think how sad it is that I have lost that shock. Some women endure so much pain and evil in their marriages. I've heard these stories so many times that their collective impact has lost some of its punch. When I encounter a specific situation with a friend, co-worker, student, or other woman, my empathy comes through full force. But to consider all these stories together? Gary's call for us to do better is my sigh of resignation. Shame on me for that.

My third reaction is a slightly feminist rant of my own. All too often, it takes a man's voice to point attention at how women are treated, even though women's voices have been saying the same thing for years.

Secrecy > Isolation > Manipulation > Abuse

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:07 pm
by Job29Man
This paragraph really spoke to me.

Gary Thomas wrote:That’s why I love how some churches will meet with a couple and hear them out to give them some objective feedback, helping them to distinguish between normal marital friction and abusive behavior. Some women need to hear, “No, this isn’t normal. It’s abuse. You don’t have to put up with that.” Others need to hear, “We think what you’re facing are the normal difficulties of marriage and with counseling they can be overcome.” There’s no way a blog post (or even a book) can adequately anticipate all such questions.

Because marriage needs some things to be private, TOO MANY people think that is the same thing as SECRET.

In my experience: When a husband (or wife) plays the "You can't tell anyone about this" card it is almost always a tool of manipulation by isolation. Because you can't talk about it, you can't really know if it is right or wrong, normal or abusive. The kinds of examples he talks about involve abuse, but the self-righteous husband maintains that it's no one's business and that it's all normal, or worse-- that it's "in the Bible."

Re: An amazing article

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:52 pm
by doug-h
I thought it was exceptionally well written.

The part that really jumped out at me was the way he used Luke 14:26. I was totally lost when he lead out with that verse, but he really did a good job of using the scripture to set the tone. The subject has come up here from time to time, and while my personl views are pretty solidly set, I alway came away wondering if I was somehow going against scripture.

The way he used the scripture did illustrate very clearly that some of the things that are taken as absolutes by so many, probably need to be looked at a little differently, not in order to discredit the Word, but to fully understand it.

Tangent from an article

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:56 pm
by Redsman
In the article, there was this quote:
As Kevin DeYoung so ably puts it, “Every divorce is the result of sin, but not every divorce is sinful.”

Above that is this quote:
God hates divorce, right? This is monstrous and vile. This woman needs to be protected from such grotesque abuse, and if divorce is the only weapon to protect her, then the church should thank God such a weapon exists.

That got me thinking, and I honestly struggle with this. Hopefully this doesn't create a firestorm on here.

The Bible, to my knowledge, says that the only time that a spouse can biblically divorce another is in an instance of marital infidelity, where one spouse cheats on another. If there is\are other verse that provide other instances of biblically approved divorce, please tell me.

If that is indeed the case (meaning divorce should only ever happen in the case of infidelity), if the lady that is being abused were to get a divorce (from a human standpoint, undertandably so), would she be sinning to do so?

I'm having a hard time reconciling this one.

Re: An amazing article

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:14 pm
by sunny-dee
Doctrinely -- and I am not a strong scholar here, so grain of salt -- but I believe the question is between "separation" and "dissolving the marriage." Legally, they may both be divorce, but one is simply a way of separating, permanently, a woman or children from a dangerous situation, whereas the other is a true dissolution of the marriage and allows for remarriage.

Like, I have read of Catholics who were divorced and in good standing with the church for reasons of alcoholism and abuse -- but the (wronged) wife in that case never remarried. The sin of divorce, Biblically, isn't necessarily in the separation -- it's in the remarriage, and the only divorce reason which allows for remarriage is adultery (and, depending on how you interpret Paul, abandonment).

Re: An amazing article

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:23 am
by C_Brown
My only issue with the article is how one sided it is. There are plenty of husbands who suffer at the hands of their wives as well. I don't like the 'men are jerks' stereotype being reinforced like this. I get that this came about due to what he was hearing at a woman's conference, and there weren't women coming to him talking about the horrible things they've done to their spouse, but the article should have been a bit more balanced.

Re: An amazing article

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:54 am
by doug-h

Your point is valid, and he does talk about it in the remarks. On the other hand, while the problem isn't a single gender problem, men are, by and large, more empowered to do something for themselves. As a rule, they are the ones with an income, or at least a higher income.

Men are much less likely to be physically abused.

When it comes to emotional abuse, it can become very subjective, and in truth, it can get pretty blurred as to if it constitutes abuse, or so level of disfunction that should be addressed.

I have a close friend who was physically and emotionally abused by his wife, and he was terribly torn about what actions he should take. I can tell you that within our Church body, he was supported, provided lodging until the separation became a legal divorce. His case was a very rare exception that left no doubt as to what was happening.