SHEET MUSIC by Dr. Kevin Leman

What marriage resources have been helpful or encouraging to you?
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby Husbandmobile » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:52 pm

MapleSyrup wrote:
Exuberance wrote:Out of curiosity, did you happen to see which books on married Christian sexuality they DID carry?


I don't remember what all she suggested... but they had "Five Love Languages" and the "Every _______ (Man/woman/etc) Battle", "Love and Respect", etc.


They carried the "Every WHATNOT Battle" series but not Sheet Music???? I find that very inconsistent. I think the 'Battle' books are much more explicit (for good cause) than Leman's stuff. Odd.

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby jokerman » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:57 pm

Well, going by title, "Every Man's Battle" implies that this sex thing is a ferocious struggle, and that sounds about right. "Sheet Music" implies that people are having fun. Think of the children!

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby luvmygirls » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:05 pm

I went into that store asking about their marriage resources, and she said, "Here you go," and handed me a tri-fold brochure.
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby Growing » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:21 pm

MapleSyrup wrote:
Growing wrote: Were the clerks wearing a little prayer cap?


Nope. They wore modern fashions and the lady was wearing jeans and a sweater.


Well that does not sound like one catering to the extreme conservative branch. Such clothes would definitly be out!

I agree that it is odd that they would have the everyman/womens battle series but not sheet music. It is one thing that they choose not to stock it, since I guess they are going to stock what they feel will be in the greatest demand, but are you saying, that no only did they not stock it, but that they would not even order for you? If so, I am with Leah.

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby MapleSyrup » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:26 pm

Growing wrote:...but are you saying, that no only did they not stock it, but that they would not even order for you?


Correct.

I have been since shopping online, but I was so shocked/disappointed. This place is the only Christian resource in town and I can't believe they'd be so:

a) legalistic
and
b) judgmental


I've been shopping at this store all my life! They've been fantastic up until this situation. I don't even know what she thinks is pornographic about it.... do you think it was the OS chapter?
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby Exuberance » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:46 pm

I read it in under a day when I got it free for Kindle, and I thought it was nothing close to pornographic. *head scratch* I've also read 5 Love Languages and Love & Respect, and both of those only give a cursory nod to married sexuality, whereas Sheet Music gives... specific advice. Maybe that's it? still, very disappointing for a Christian bookstore to be so legalistic when quite frankly specific advice is often needed.

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby manygoodyears » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:42 pm

MapleSyrup wrote:Is this lady just being a prude, or am I being too defensive of this book? I understand it has a chapter on oral sex which, though descriptive, is still objective and "matter-of-fact".

I don't know... her comment really bothered me. The book was huge for me, and in addition to that I think it is downright insulting to put that book on par with porn. :roll:

I would have loved to explain to her what a great book it was, but I felt too judged to take the conversation any further. :oops:

I'll be a dissenting voice here. This lady is just being...herself. And you are being yourself. Christians differ on lots of topics. If she can't, in good conscience, stock that book, then we shouldn't condemn her for that, even if we do feel she is the "weaker sister" (playing off Romans 14 here). You wouldn't want her to sell you the book if she felt it was wrong for her to do so, would you?

It's perfectly fine if I'm surprised--even shocked--that another Christian has different views, but I hope I can use it as an opportunity to understand & show the grace I would myself like to receive from others. Not that I always do this very well...

Amazon and CBD will put her out of business anyhow, eventually. :/

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby KyWildcat » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:19 am

manygoodyears wrote:
MapleSyrup wrote:Is this lady just being a prude, or am I being too defensive of this book? I understand it has a chapter on oral sex which, though descriptive, is still objective and "matter-of-fact".

I don't know... her comment really bothered me. The book was huge for me, and in addition to that I think it is downright insulting to put that book on par with porn. :roll:

I would have loved to explain to her what a great book it was, but I felt too judged to take the conversation any further. :oops:

I'll be a dissenting voice here. This lady is just being...herself. And you are being yourself. Christians differ on lots of topics. If she can't, in good conscience, stock that book, then we shouldn't condemn her for that, even if we do feel she is the "weaker sister" (playing off Romans 14 here). You wouldn't want her to sell you the book if she felt it was wrong for her to do so, would you?

It's perfectly fine if I'm surprised--even shocked--that another Christian has different views, but I hope I can use it as an opportunity to understand & show the grace I would myself like to receive from others. Not that I always do this very well...

Amazon and CBD will put her out of business anyhow, eventually. :/

I think you make a good point but I also see the other side that points out that as a Christian bookstore they will be viewed as an "authority" by others.

The view that Sheet Music is "pornographic" is a portion of what this website is here to address (see Description and Purpose of the Boards), "many in the church have downplayed the proper role of human sexuality."
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby beautyfromashes » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:37 am

manygoodyears wrote:
MapleSyrup wrote:Is this lady just being a prude, or am I being too defensive of this book? I understand it has a chapter on oral sex which, though descriptive, is still objective and "matter-of-fact".

I don't know... her comment really bothered me. The book was huge for me, and in addition to that I think it is downright insulting to put that book on par with porn. :roll:

I would have loved to explain to her what a great book it was, but I felt too judged to take the conversation any further. :oops:

I'll be a dissenting voice here. This lady is just being...herself. And you are being yourself. Christians differ on lots of topics. If she can't, in good conscience, stock that book, then we shouldn't condemn her for that, even if we do feel she is the "weaker sister" (playing off Romans 14 here). You wouldn't want her to sell you the book if she felt it was wrong for her to do so, would you?

It's perfectly fine if I'm surprised--even shocked--that another Christian has different views, but I hope I can use it as an opportunity to understand & show the grace I would myself like to receive from others. Not that I always do this very well...

Amazon and CBD will put her out of business anyhow, eventually. :/


I thinks someone's totally within their rights to not sell a particular book. I think it's an excellent book and have no problem recommending it. However, I understand some people aren't comfortable with frank conversations about sex.

A more tactful way for that bookstore owner to handle the situation would have been to say "I don't feel comfortable selling that book." She could have left it at that and left "it's pornographic" out of the conversation. I think that's what made Maple Syrup feel judged.
Deep intimacy always requires work, acceptance, and forgiveness. Lots of it. ~~ Linda Dillow

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby Shipguy » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:00 am

The owner may be a refuser. Stock any book that refutes refusal and the owner becomes a hypocrite. Ergo, no Sheet Music.
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby jokerman » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:25 am

beautyfromashes wrote:
manygoodyears wrote:
MapleSyrup wrote:Is this lady just being a prude, or am I being too defensive of this book? I understand it has a chapter on oral sex which, though descriptive, is still objective and "matter-of-fact".

I don't know... her comment really bothered me. The book was huge for me, and in addition to that I think it is downright insulting to put that book on par with porn. :roll:

I would have loved to explain to her what a great book it was, but I felt too judged to take the conversation any further. :oops:

I'll be a dissenting voice here. This lady is just being...herself. And you are being yourself. Christians differ on lots of topics. If she can't, in good conscience, stock that book, then we shouldn't condemn her for that, even if we do feel she is the "weaker sister" (playing off Romans 14 here). You wouldn't want her to sell you the book if she felt it was wrong for her to do so, would you?

It's perfectly fine if I'm surprised--even shocked--that another Christian has different views, but I hope I can use it as an opportunity to understand & show the grace I would myself like to receive from others. Not that I always do this very well...

Amazon and CBD will put her out of business anyhow, eventually. :/


I thinks someone's totally within their rights to not sell a particular book. I think it's an excellent book and have no problem recommending it. However, I understand some people aren't comfortable with frank conversations about sex.

A more tactful way for that bookstore owner to handle the situation would have been to say "I don't feel comfortable selling that book." She could have left it at that and left "it's pornographic" out of the conversation. I think that's what made Maple Syrup feel judged.


A shop owner is definitely in their rights to not sell a particular book or product, but that decision will inevitably lead to confusion or disappointment for customers. Most people who walk into Christian bookstores assume the store will carry, or special order, anything from a Christian publisher. A Christian bookseller who wants to provide items for the broad Protestant/evangelical market usually needs to be somewhat open-minded, and sell music that grates on his own nerves but which younger people might enjoy, or sell books by "name it and claim it" preachers or people who believe differently about tongues/gifts of the Spirit, etc. If you can't do that, you end up with a store that by its nature is making judgment calls on what it thinks is and isn't legit for evangelicals to read, and those customers probably won't come back.

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby ukFred » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:54 am

I have come to this thread late and I am of the opinion that the assistant/owner was wrong to describe the book as pornography. I would support her not supplying the book if she felt it went against her conscience, but I would not support the manner in which she responded to the request for the book. why did she need to say anyuthing beyond "This is outside the range of books we stock".

The posting did make me think of the t-shirt Mark Driscoll wore on one of his videos, "God, save me from your followers".
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby MapleSyrup » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:02 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:A more tactful way for that bookstore owner to handle the situation would have been to say "I don't feel comfortable selling that book." She could have left it at that and left "it's pornographic" out of the conversation. I think that's what made Maple Syrup feel judged.


Bingo.

I'm not upset that the book isn't carried. I was upset that she described the book as "pornographic".

1) It makes me feel judged as a potential "porn" user in her eyes for requesting the book.
2) I think it's wrong to put a well-intentioned, scripture-based, book on par with something as evil and destructive as pornography.
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby KyWildcat » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:46 pm

MapleSyrup wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:A more tactful way for that bookstore owner to handle the situation would have been to say "I don't feel comfortable selling that book." She could have left it at that and left "it's pornographic" out of the conversation. I think that's what made Maple Syrup feel judged.


Bingo.

I'm not upset that the book isn't carried. I was upset that she described the book as "pornographic".

1) It makes me feel judged as a potential "porn" user in her eyes for requesting the book.
2) I think it's wrong to put a well-intentioned, scripture-based, book on par with something as evil and destructive as pornography.

And there you have a good response to her as to why you will no longer by using their services.
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby KyWildcat » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:46 pm

MapleSyrup wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:A more tactful way for that bookstore owner to handle the situation would have been to say "I don't feel comfortable selling that book." She could have left it at that and left "it's pornographic" out of the conversation. I think that's what made Maple Syrup feel judged.


Bingo.

I'm not upset that the book isn't carried. I was upset that she described the book as "pornographic".

1) It makes me feel judged as a potential "porn" user in her eyes for requesting the book.
2) I think it's wrong to put a well-intentioned, scripture-based, book on par with something as evil and destructive as pornography.

And there you have a good response to her as to why you will no longer by using their services.
Marriage will show your immaturity and selfishness faster than anything on earth. You either grow up or grow apart. It's your choice.

© A Grown Up Marriage
TMB Copyright and Fair Use

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby manygoodyears » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:01 pm

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. -- Romans 14:1-4; the rest of the chapter bears reading as well

I'm not saying MapleSyrup was wrong to feel offended or judged. But need we judge the (presumably absent) bookstore lady by saying she's a refuser or whatever?

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby melinda » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:24 pm

Though I don't find "Sheet Music" to be pornographic in nature, I did not find it helpful for me or my situation.

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby Shipguy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:35 am

manygoodyears wrote:But need we judge the (presumably absent) bookstore lady by saying she's a refuser or whatever?


Nobody said she is (she's) a refuser. That would indeed be judging. I speculated she might be. There is a big difference between speculating (mulling over, considering, chewing on, considering) and judging (deciding, passing sentence, declaring, pronouncing, labeling) .
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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby melinda » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:22 am

Shipguy wrote:
manygoodyears wrote:But need we judge the (presumably absent) bookstore lady by saying she's a refuser or whatever?


Nobody said she is (she's) a refuser. That would indeed be judging. I speculated she might be. There is a big difference between speculating (mulling over, considering, chewing on, considering) and judging (deciding, passing sentence, declaring, pronouncing, labeling) .


You're right there is a big difference. But I wouldn't even speculate that the shop owner might be, simply because I don't know her or anything about her other than the one contact the OP had with her. And for me, that simply is not enough information to even guess about her situation.

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Re: "Sheet Music" = Pornography?

Postby Shipguy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:33 pm

melinda wrote:
Shipguy wrote:
manygoodyears wrote:But need we judge the (presumably absent) bookstore lady by saying she's a refuser or whatever?


Nobody said she is (she's) a refuser. That would indeed be judging. I speculated she might be. There is a big difference between speculating (mulling over, considering, chewing on, considering) and judging (deciding, passing sentence, declaring, pronouncing, labeling) .


You're right there is a big difference. But I wouldn't even speculate that the shop owner might be, simply because I don't know her or anything about her other than the one contact the OP had with her. And for me, that simply is not enough information to even guess about her situation.


Well, then you'ns better also get after those who said it sounded like she was super conservative, prudish, a conspirator to silence, and pandered more to Churchianity than to Christianity. Those are speculative too.
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