Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Low or no sex drive?
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby bigloop » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:17 am

I believe it is true that spouses don't know what they don't know - meaning some things just don't translate. We can try to equivocate hobbies or entertainment preference differences to sex, but it just doesn't match up. Different levels. To say "my wife doesn't like car stuff like I do but I can live with that" is much different than "she doesn't like sex with me." That goes directly into many men's hearts and souls. She may decide to go for a ride with you in your project car as a sign of love and you can appreciate that effort. She doesn't have to get greasy with you for you to appreciate her effort. Sex is different. As has been said, sex is what makes it a marriage rather than a roommate relationship. I'm sure many, many women just can't understand that translation of love. And that does appear like a double standard. In fact it is just a different standard of love, and they can't understand our standard. Our standard may need some refining, but to claim it is faulty in essence is just as wrong as claiming low desire equals a complete lack of love.
But when she claims you're childish for messing with cars and refuses to ever take a ride with you and fights any efforts you make in your automobile endeavors....it builds resentment even when it's a superficial hobby. Because it represents an unwillingness to understand you, an aversion to who you are, a purposeful demeaning of your being. Sex is this times ten.....

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby SeekingChange » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:09 am

Here's my opinion.... there definitely could be the potential of a "double standard" and changing the world's thinking doesn't matter and highly unlikely, but each person has the chance to change their own little world, their marriage.

Bigloop says, "Because it represents an unwillingness to understand you, an aversion to who you are, a purposeful demeaning of your being. Sex is this times ten....."...and assuming this is how most men feel.... What one needs to make sure they do, before trying to change their world, is make sure the log is out of their own eye, before trying to remove the speck out of their wives. If we go back to the OP and his conclusion, where he's making a judgment because of his wife's lack of enjoyment, there seems to be a great deal of "unwillingness to understand" his wife, and not just his wife but how many women are and operate. Even hitting on the point of "refusing", often times, that is born out of relationship issues with the husband. Husbands, work at understanding your wife as an individual and as a woman. In that process you will start seeing if there is a heart issue and a true "double standard" or if it's just a natural, God-given difference between you and her, between men and women, or if you even, probably unintentionally, fed into the issue of a refusing wife (just speaking from experience)..

Once you work on yourself, be understanding yourself, make sure you have no heart issues yourself, like refusing or gatekeeping in an area of need for her, or not being rebellious to the Lord in another area of your own life (Have you been or are you being convicted to stop something, start something, or make your own changes, and you are flat out refusing? Could your rebellion in a totally unrelated area be hindering your prayers for your marriage?) then, you will see clear enough to help remove the speck out of your wife's eye, and deal with any heart issue that may be there... and your world will be changing.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Unfulfilled » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:15 am

I have absolutely no problem with looking at yourself to see wht improvements we can make in ourselves. And since we can only control ourselves, that has to come first. But...

Married people have marriage problems. Single people have single problems. It takes two to tango. And in marriage it takes both people to WANT and work towards improvement. The problems occur when neither want to change or work. Or nearly as ineffective is when one of the two works while the other does NOTHING.

The idea of belief that refusal of sex by a wife is a "spec" is part of the problem. It is not a spec. It is a complete red wood forest!

The refused husband must look to see if he is contributing to her refusal. It there ARE times when the husband is doing everything they can and more, and still the wife denies. Then what???

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Hiswifeagain » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:33 am

Unfulfilled wrote: And in marriage it takes both people to WANT and work towards improvement. The problems occur when neither want to change or work. Or nearly as ineffective is when one of the two works while the other does NOTHING.



I don't think this is true. It takes one person to change for the marriage to change. It may not be everything one spouse wants, but it will be a different marriage. I believe God softens and hardens hearts for His purposes. We may never know why He doesn't change our spouses heart the way we'd like, but we can continue to grow and serve Him while living through a hard season or even a hard entire marriage. Saying it " takes 2" can be self defeating, IMO.


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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby SeekingChange » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:20 am

Unfulfilled wrote:The idea of belief that refusal of sex by a wife is a "speck" is part of the problem. It is not a speck. It is a complete red wood forest!

Let's step away from a narrow view of just one's marriage, and let's look at a broader scope of one's relationship with Christ. If a person, man or woman, is being convicted by the Lord on something, and it can be any issue, and they are refusing to be obedient, that's rebellion. For example, since we have been speaking about a generous heart in a wife, we could look at a generous spirit of giving.

Let's say you've heard a "message" or many messages on giving and you've heard what the Word says about giving, because Jesus speaks of money and giving quite a bit, and let's say you even feel a little tug that you should start tithing or giving financially to support a church or a missions, but you outright refuse because it's "your money", or you justify not doing it because "it's a old testament concept" or "we live under grace", etc, if you aren't obedient, you are being rebellious.... We could look at any area like pride, greed, lust, etc. Do you really think your wife's grievance against you is MUCH MORE of a offense to the Lord, then your own rebellion against His will and His leading for you?

Unfulfilled wrote:The refused husband must look to see if he is contributing to her refusal. It there ARE times when the husband is doing everything they can and more, and still the wife denies. Then what???


First, if you've searched your own heart and your own life, and you know that you are right before the Lord, then you are ready to help your wife address her issues. How that looks, will be different in each couple. That's when it is so important to walk by the Spirit and be led by the Spirit (Gal. 5). For some, it will be confrontation, and maybe over and over. For some, it could be stepping back, praying and allowing the Holy Spirit to handle it.

When you've done ALL you can, and that's on yourself first, and then doing what you should and can with your wife, then sometimes it comes down to learning to be content no matter the circumstance (Phil. 4), and just trusting the Lord (Is. 26:3) and waiting on Him (Is. 40:31). If God's Word is true... you can have perfect peace and have strength and not grow weary, and be content, no matter what your wife chooses to do, it's all about your own relationship with the Lord.

I totally agree with HWA.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Job29Man » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:40 am

bigloop wrote:Yeah....but some have had it checked and found to be in normal ranges for age. What do you say then?


If you follow strict AMA guidelines, probably nothing. Instead you look for a different cause.

But if you are more holistic and skeptical of the American Medical Association and of modern medicine's god-like status as a whole, and you see obvious symptoms of low T, or low whatever? You figure "this patient doesn't fit my neat little 'normal range' models" and you go ahead and treat for Low T based on the symptoms, not the test result.

We read on TMB about man after man after man who display all the symptoms of low T but the Doc says "yer in the normal range... nothing to see here... move along." And we read of men who have test results in the "low range" and nevertheless lack symptoms for low T.

So could it be that people are different? And what's low for me is normal for you, or vice versa? I think so.

So, if you display the symptoms of low sex hormones... I'd be skeptical about believing the "you're in the normal range" response.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby bigloop » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:19 pm

Jobman- you talking about men or women? Sounds like you're addressing T in men. Women's hormones are a tad more complicated.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby bigloop » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:20 pm

Yes - self evaluation should constantly be going on - in BOTH parties.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby poetess » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:16 pm

SS, it's probably better to let him explain himself. He says that sex is the only reward for marriage for a man, which seems pretty general to me. (Not that it's only that's his own personal experience, and one attained sorrowfully over time, but that it's true of men in general. My husband would certainly not agree.)
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Unfulfilled » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:33 pm

SS: you say:

"do you really think that a man goes into a marriage thinking, "Oh, boy. I've finally got a sex machine of my own."

YES - sort of. I don't think he thinks he has a "sex machine". But he DEFINITELY believe he has a dedicated partner who wants and desires to have sex with him and REGULARLY. Sex is one of several reasons, but definitely one big reason that goes through many and I dare say most (at least most of the male married friends I know) go into sex with massive relief that sex will no longer be a curse to fight off and push down and control. That in fact he has a person who he can make love to like he has always wanted. And either had to deny and suppress , or engage in the sin of premarital sex and the guilt that goes with that.

THE most common complaint I hear from married men I know, is the sad state of their sex life. Most seem genuinely happy or accepting of most other aspects of married life, with the exception of sex.

Maybe I live in a warped bubble of sex crazed men. But time and again I hear the same old story. Most have simply and literally given up hope and try to ignore it. But when the discussion rolls around to it in confidence. It's the same story.

So again the answer to your question is YES. Many men do go into marriage with sex being a huge factor
That is on their mind. It may or may not be #1 on the list. But it certainly makes the top 3, I would guess.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Job29Man » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:18 pm

bigloop wrote:Jobman- you talking about men or women? Sounds like you're addressing T in men. Women's hormones are a tad more complicated.


Yep, men. Guess I shoulda read closer eh?
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby JT77 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:17 am

I haven't been able to keep up with this through the holiday week, but I've realized there's a few more important clarifications I need to make.

1) I reject the idea that "love is action". It's unBiblical and irrational. 1 Cor. 13:3 says that you can do the most "loving" things (give away all you have and offer your body to the flames), and yet "have not love". That means love is not an action. It might be proven out in action (just like faith), but it is not an action.

2) Therefore "duty sex" is not ok. In fact, I think it's pretty disgusting, and it makes a mockery of true romantic love.

3) I never said (Poetess) that she needs to want it as strong as and as much as I do. Quit putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that the extent to which she doesn't genuinely desire it at all is likely the extent to which she doesn't actually love me in a romantic way. Either that, or she's got some serious psychological problems concerning sex and love that need to be addressed. If I'm wrong here, I'd really like to be proven wrong. That's the point of this thread.

4) Apparently I need to repeat the fact that I do genuinely desire to spend quality time with her, to take her on dates, to sit and talk, etc... Not because I like to do those things "naturally," but because I love doing them with her...because I love her. I wouldn't have any pleasure in doing those things with other people, just like she probably doesn't naturally desire sex, and wouldn't have pleasure in doing it with other people. But, because I love her, I do genuinely enjoy and desire doing those things with her.

5) I completely disagree with the idea that sex is some added bonus "to fill the man's needs". Sex was not designed by God "to fill the man's needs". It was designed by God to be the consummation of romantic love for both the husband and the wife.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby SeekingChange » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:09 am

JT77 wrote:2) Therefore "duty sex" is not ok. In fact, I think it's pretty disgusting, and it makes a mockery of true romantic love.

This I find interesting, in 1 Cor. 7, the word "duty" is actually what the NASB (an many others) use to translate what the obligation of the spouse is, specifically speaking of the conjugal rights.

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1 Corinthians 7:3-6 (NASB) 3 The husband must fulfill his duty** to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


**ὀφειλή opheilḗ, of-i-lay'; from G3784; indebtedness, i.e. (concretely) a sum owed; figuratively, obligation, i.e. (conjugal) duty:—debt, due.

How can one call something wrong, or sin, "not ok" or "pretty disgusting", when, Scripture seems to support it?
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby doug-h » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:27 am

JT,

I'm not going to bother looking up scripture to discredit your points. I am sure there are those who are more knowledgeable than I, that can do a much better job than I.

On the other hand, I can discuss your first point quite knowledgably.
Yes, you can do a lot of good things without love, and I think that is the point that Paul was making. That doesn't mean that love isn't an action, just that you can perform many if not all of the same good works without love. There are a lot of reasons people might do so. I've been guilty of acting loving out of spite from time to time. I have done so in hopes of gaining some favor. I have done so in hope of not being seen as unloving. I have done so out of obligation.

I agree with a lot of what you write, but I think that a lot of the time, it is your hurt talking too.
I've been down that road, and I still detour onto it from time to time. I can tell you unequivocally that there isn't anything down it but more hurt.

The thing is, you could be right. You might love your wife more than she loves you. On the other hand, I wonder what she would say if she were here, and the same question was posed to her. I wonder if she would say that she felt loved, or if all your good works had something other than love behind them.

I'm not saying that is the case. I am simply offering up something for you to think about. Even if your motives were totally pure and her perceptions were mistaken, they may well shape her actions. Just give it some thought.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby bigloop » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:38 am

JT77 wrote:I haven't been able to keep up with this through the holiday week, but I've realized there's a few more important clarifications I need to make.

1) I reject the idea that "love is action". It's unBiblical and irrational. 1 Cor. 13:3 says that you can do the most "loving" things (give away all you have and offer your body to the flames), and yet "have not love". That means love is not an action. It might be proven out in action (just like faith), but it is not an action.

2) Therefore "duty sex" is not ok. In fact, I think it's pretty disgusting, and it makes a mockery of true romantic love.

1-2) Perhaps you misunderstand the concept of agape, eros and phileo (sp?). Sometimes I'm not sure man is capable of fully understanding it. God never commands a feeling, He has always commanded actions, even when in contrast to our "feelings." Proper actions do lead to better feelings. If you don't allow that to play out in your wife, you will be a most disappointed man. "Duty sex" is not a good effort on her part, on that I agree. If we claim the feeling, then yes we should illustrate the action or we are just like Peter denying Jesus. "Love" is a description, an explanation of feeling, and it is a description, an explanation of action. "If you Love me (Jesus), keep my commandments." "Love your wife as Christ loved the church..." It tells us what that love was. An action - "he gave himself for it." You are correct, as faith without works is dead, love without action is useless. And a marriage without sex is a fraud (obvious exceptions of health, etc apply).

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby bigloop » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:43 am

Other translations use "obligation" in place of duty. Similar thought IMO. God commands an action, not a feeling. I believe because He understands the truth that if that action is carried out in all sincerity and with grace in our hearts (both) then it will lead to the desired feeling at some level. But if one acts out of spite or with a hardened heart of selfishness, nothing good will come of it.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Unfulfilled » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:14 am

Suffolk sinner said:

"It's interesting that refusing wives can set sex aside as a part of a marriage, realizing that the sexlife in the marriage is a problem, but since she perceives that everything else in the marriage is okay, the whole marriage must be okay, too. Whereas men will rate an entire marriage a failure if the sexlife stinks."

I think that indeed this is interesting and for the most part true. I think I read somewhere, I don't know where as I've read so many books and blogs over the years. But the bottom line of the argument was that most women believe that they can "make up for" the lack of sex by over doing other things in the relationship with their husband. That is they can make up for refusal by. Sing a super Mom, or a super cook or whatever. And the fact is that they can be rated A+ In every area of their marriage, but in most husbands if there is a poor grade in the marriage bed, it would result in a poor overall marriage grade. I believe that is completely true. And furthermore, the wives who believe that they can "make up for" refusal and poor sex life are completely amazed and dumbfounded that they can't make that sort of "trade".

The argument that: "I do everything for him except sex" just simply doesn't cut it.

If a husband was an excellent father, an excellent provider, an excellent home up keeper and in every other area of being a husband EXCEPT he would not pay attention or listen to a single thing she had to say. In other words he was a "refuser" for conversation, how would that work out? I'm pretty sure she would feel hurt, unloved and even accuse him of emotional abuse. This would be viewed as TOTALLY unacceptable. It should be, and it is viewed as unacceptable.

Sexual refusal is the same situationbit a different action. And it is totally unacceptable here on TMB. But in the popular culture it is NOT found to. E repugnant or unacceptable. In fact it is not only found acceptable, it is even frequently joked about in society.

I have one friend and he has a great sex life with his wife. He has told me that when she goes out with the girls and the talk switches to sex. All of the other women complain about sex and how they try to keep from having sex more than about once a week. When she tells that she only gets a day or two a week of NOT having sexual, they look at her like she is crazy and basically what's wrong with her and that she needs to take more control.

The bottom line is that the culture accepts and even promotes the idea that the woman controls the sex in the house and that less is better. That sex IS a form of control and reward etc.

I agree those here do NOT share this view. I just want to keep the thought that in society as a whole, this is not the way they think. We have a counter culture here. We kind of preach to the choir here. It is hard to put yourself back into the popular culture paradigm. New folks coming here and their spouses are totally immersed and are operating in that popular culture paradigm. They are steeped in it and fighting it. They are trying to have a discussion with their spouse. They can speak the truth and find the truth here. But they are trying to convince their spouse who is not living in the knowledge of the truth. They are living with being fed and brain washed with the misguided popular culture.
Last edited by Unfulfilled on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby bigloop » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:11 am

Hiswifeagain wrote:
Unfulfilled wrote: And in marriage it takes both people to WANT and work towards improvement. The problems occur when neither want to change or work. Or nearly as ineffective is when one of the two works while the other does NOTHING.

I don't think this is true. It takes one person to change for the marriage to change. It may not be everything one spouse wants, but it will be a different marriage. I believe God softens and hardens hearts for His purposes. We may never know why He doesn't change our spouses heart the way we'd like, but we can continue to grow and serve Him while living through a hard season or even a hard entire marriage. Saying it " takes 2" can be self defeating, IMO.

HWA - you are absolutely correct in this. It is true that a wife who decides that her feelings are more important than her husbands and chooses her selfish desires over his time and again can absolutely, single handedly destroy a marriage with no further action required from him. Thank you for bringing that truth to the table.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Job29Man » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:19 am

Time for closing statements.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Unfulfilled » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:37 pm

The Double standard exits when meeting your spouse's needs with regard to sex. It is wrong but it is pervasive. A double standard in the opposite direction is equally unacceptable and for the most part it is not tolerated. But somehow when it comes to sex it is different.

I think that the double standard is that in all other areas of our lives. We are expected to walk the walk, and not just talk the talk. But somehow in this OP case, a wife admitting that she has a problem or issue with sex is good enough. That there is no need to go further, that she has some sort of "right" when it comes to sex that she gets to control it. She can talk about improving in the area of sex, but make no effort or action to that end. (It is not what is advocated of believed here on TMB but is in popular culture)

I think that the OP (JT77) was only expressing his frustration over the double standard that exists in popular culture. And that he was NOT looking for his wife to overnight to become a sex goddess. I do think however that he was and is rightfully expecting that his wife SHOW through her ACTIONS that she be doing SOMETHING to change and improve. But instead he sees her doing nothing. And she seems to be supported by and large with the culture that she is OK in that position. That going through the motions and giving him sex is good enough.

TMB is one of only a few places where this double standard is in fact called out and exposed. However it is a small voice in a massive crowd. And even if we here at TMB supported JT77 fully, he would go back to his wife with this support and he would be crushed by the weight of the rest of society. TMB is a drop in the ocean. He loses all credibility with his wife because he is a sex crazed pervert and he sought out the one voice in the crowd that supports his warped belief. While she has the preponderance of society accepting that she doesn't need to go there with sex.

This is but one of many uphill battles that have to be overcome. In pop culture sex in marriage is by and large something that is earned. Something that is lacking. Something that a man has to do everything right and if he makes one small mistake, POOF! "He's not getting any sex tonight". Pop culture teaches that sex in marriage is boring and has to be earned and all the right planets have to be aligned or it won't happen. While sex outside of marriage is exciting, fun and freely given. Clearly this is the work of Satan. As Satan abhors marriage. And a single biggest wedge that can be placed to rip apart a marriage is sex. So he uses it to the maximum. So we all have to help wage against this faulty message.


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