Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Low or no sex drive?
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be64
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby be64 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:11 pm

I don't pretend to understand women, but my opinion is that sex is not such a horrible act that a wife shouldn't be willing to do it simply to please her husband and show her love for him even if she could do without it herself.
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Re: Conversations and sex

Postby ledgemoor » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:54 am

Ok, a few rushed closing comments.

I want to comment on the discussion in this thread about the female need for conversation. And I cringed when someone said that sex is the only benefit a man gets from marriage.

I propose that conversation is a way of being sexual, and something that females are usually better at than we men are. What attracted us to our wives in the first place? Her body for sure. But not just her body. Her as a whole person. Looking back at my relationship with the friend that became my wife, sure her body was a perfect 10 back in the day, but I didn't get that need-to-get-into-her-pants feeling until I got to know her, and know her well.

We didn't date our wives just because it would hopefully eventually lead to marriage and sex. We also dated them because we enjoyed their company. It is so important to keep dating after you're married. We do it a lot, and need to do it more. But I tell DW that I was a perfect gentleman for 23 years. But now that I'm married, when I go out on a date, I EXPECT SEX :lol:.

We went on a vision retreat last year, and had the best sex ever. We didn't try anything new or anything like that. It was because we were the most open we had been with each other since before we were married and were just friends. So guys, when your wife wants to talk, do it. A lot of it will be trivial day-to-day stuff that really doesn't need rehashing, but just listen and participate. You will then be in a better position to steer towards deeper and more intimate conversation.

-----

I said before that men have a real need to be needed sexually. We LIKE foreplay and do not see any of it as an obligation or duty. (These words have negative connotations that are not correct, BTW). I think women have this need too, but it is not as evident. When DW gets to kavetching about how often I want sex, I point out that there are dear, beautiful women on TMB whose husbands are not interested in them sexually. I invite her to read the agony in their posts. I point out that I spare no effort to please her when she wants it, and I ENJOY doing that and NEED to do that, even though I may not be in the mood and may not have an orgasm. Is having sex, even when your not in the mood, really that unpleasant? She admits that yes, she does enjoy the affection and seeing my response.

The problem is that most women are never deprived of sex. Their husband is always ready and willing whenever they are and even when they aren't. My bout with low testosterone brought DW to a better understanding of what it's like not to be needed sexually.

------

TJW, on your wife's not appreciating you, what you earn, etc. etc. Every man's dilemma. For too long I failed to discuss things that needed to be discussed for fear of upsetting my wife. But a female friend helped me understand that women do not like weak men. Read any romance novel. The man is always assertive. The woman gets upset about it, but she still falls for him. I'm staring age 60 in the face, and don't have forever to bide my time on this. So now, I diplomatically and lovingly say what needs to be said. I figure she'll either get over it or she won't. Either way I am better off. But so far she HAS gotten over it, and our marriage the best it has ever been.

---------
Hormones: What Job said about men and testosterone also applies to women. Just because the GP doctor says she is "normal" doesn't mean she is. Research it for yourself. Start a new thread or PM me and tell me your wife's testosterone reading. I can help you determine how "normal" she really is. As Job said, normal for a given person can only be determined experimentally. If she has low libido and other symptoms of low testosterone, and if you give her testosterone and she gets better, she has low testosterone regardless of what the numbers say. Lab tests are a tool in determining her hormonal health, but just a tool, not the solution. You really need to see a bHRT/Life Extension doctor who aims for optimal hormonal health, not just "normal".

And it is possible that there are other causes of low or no libido.
Last edited by ledgemoor on Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby be64 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:10 am

Ledgemoor, while it's true that sex isn't the only benefit a man gets from marriage, sex is the only thing a man can't get without marriage. Although I think most would not approve of such a thing, technically a man and woman could live together and do everything a married couple does except have nudity and sex (and children). They could even sleep in the same bed if there was no physical contact or nudity so in that regard the only thing that I can see would be added by marriage is the sexual relationship. Can you name another benefit the man in my example would gain by being married?
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby ledgemoor » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:59 am

Agreed. And the same goes for women. Sex is a huge deal, not arguing with you there.

Can you name another benefit the man in my example would gain by being married?
Yes. A better friendship -- a closer and better overall relationship.

You don't have to be married be friends of course. But you become best friends with a woman, fall in love, get married, and have sex, it changes everything about the relationship. Just as sex is better when you do it with someone you love, like, admire, and are committed to, love and friendship is deeper if you are having sex.

Unfortunately in a sinful world it doesn't always work that way. But I think that is what God intends.
Last edited by ledgemoor on Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby sunny-dee » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:29 am

ledgemoor, thank you for everything you said.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby sunny-dee » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:34 am

be64 wrote:Ledgemoor, while it's true that sex isn't the only benefit a man gets from marriage, sex is the only thing a man can't get without marriage. Although I think most would not approve of such a thing, technically a man and woman could live together and do everything a married couple does except have nudity and sex (and children). They could even sleep in the same bed if there was no physical contact or nudity so in that regard the only thing that I can see would be added by marriage is the sexual relationship. Can you name another benefit the man in my example would gain by being married?


Actually, this is a really unfair and unrealistic comparison. Marriage is set apart by the fact it is sexual, but that is not the only part of it. Marriage is a lifetime commitment. Someone there, supporting you and caring for you (figuratively and literally) in any state, for a lifetime. There is no other relationship, including parent-child, that has that degree of devotion.

If you set up this false comparison -- like, what if you had someone who shared all financial and household burdens, who was there to listen to you, who would take care of you when you're old, who you take vacations with and who makes you a cup of coffee in the morning, and is in every way an attentive spouse. Except there is no relationship, not even friendship, that offers that degree of personal intimacy.

I get that sex is important. I get that sex is one of the things that differentiates marriage from any other relationship. I get all this as a wife to a low-drive, gatekeeping husband. But marriage is more than just bumping uglies. If that is literally the only thing that defines marriage to you, you have an incomplete view of what a relationship is.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby doug-h » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:01 pm

Well said, sunny-dee, and that is coming from a guy.

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby be64 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:20 pm

sunny-dee, I see nothing in your example that couldn't be done by my theoretical couple living together without marriage or sex. Basically what I'm saying is that if a couple isn't having sex then they are living like my theoretical couple.

I realize there is the ocasional low drive husband, but I think most women don't have a clue as to how important sex is for a man. A woman can just say not now I'm not in the mood as though it's no big deal but most men I know are always in the mood and would drop everything for sex at any moment. Men like me think about sex every few minutes of every waking moment. My wife and I make love at least every other day but still as soon as we are finished I'm thinking about how long it's going to be before I get to do it again. I think most women are not like me. I think most women do not understand the burning need for sexual release that many men have.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby sunny-dee » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:00 pm

@be64, my response is that your theoretical is so impossible that it's not a realistic example. You are literally taking the other benefits of marriage -- benefits that are only possible within a marriage -- and then hand-waving and saying, "let's assume I can get those elsewhere. So, what's my reason for getting married now?"

And to be perfectly blunt, you're objectifying women. The way you're stating it, the actual relationship is valueless and the only thing worth anything is getting a little butter on your muffin. Literally everything else -- a home, companionship, a partner in Christ, a caretaker, children, shared experiences -- is completely nothing. The only reason you're in marriage is free, easy, and frequent access to sex. And she better act like she likes it, not just "duty sex."

How about this, what if your wife said -- and defended, repeatedly on this message board -- that the only reason she married you was for money. She is disappointed in you because you don't make as much as her friends' husbands and it would just be so much better for her if she had never even gotten married because you are so rotten at giving her money, as much as she wants. And the only reason any woman should ever marry is for money; that's the only thing they get out of a marriage. Everything else they can get elsewhere and better. And, seriously, like as soon as you deposit a paycheck, she already has it spent and is planning on how to spend the next one, and how can you not understand how important money is to her?????

How motivated would you feel to provide for your wife? Would you feel loved? Would you even feel like your marriage had value?

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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Job29Man » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:07 pm

be64 wrote:Can you name another benefit the man in my example would gain by being married?
Children from his own loins; that might drive a man into marriage. Also rights of inheritance, citizenship (in some cases), automatic joint ownership of property, medical powers of decision; but these are generally not worth marrying for.

BTW I've decided that my personal answer to the question "Does no sex = no love?" is 'yes.' IMHO No Sex = No Love. (IOW real "Married Love" is the Pass/Fail standard for love in marriage.)
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby poetess » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:08 pm

Sunny-dee, very, very well said.

And to add insult to injury, you then determine your husband doesn't love you, because he isn't enthusiastic enough about taking care of your financial needs. (No, I know that meeting needs and sexual intimacy are not the same thing in element of a relationship, but security and a sense of being loved are extremely important to a woman. And if she feels unprotected, uncared for, unvalued, then we may well be entering a vicious cycle where she has a really hard time engaging in an intimacy that is more vulnerable for most women than it is for most men. If he is valuing her only for sex, and she senses it, it's quite likely the sex will be anything but intimate to her, and the cycle continues.) I suspect that men may well understand this analogy very well.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby be64 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:09 pm

Job29Man wrote:
be64 wrote:Can you name another benefit the man in my example would gain by being married?
Children from his own loins.
I mentioned children along with sex in one of my posts.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby be64 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:18 pm

Sunny-dee I guess to combine our analogies I will say that because of my paycheck my wife has more money than anyone she knows and I get more sex than anyone I know so I guess we should both be satisfied.
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby be64 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:22 pm

My point is that a sexless marriage really isn't a true marriage. Besides there is a command in the Bible to "become one flesh".
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Re: Frustrated with Double Standards. No Sex = No love

Postby Job29Man » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:32 pm

Thanks everybody for a great discussion. We'll close this thread now, but leave it up for future reading and reference.
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