Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Bear » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:40 am

OML, when I read your 4/13 update I didn't get a sense from your post that the Mr Bill reference was a tease from your DH. In that context I apologize for my previous post. :( My only intention was congratulations and praise.

We guys can be pretty thick headed. I'm curious though: did your DH tease you or did you feel teased? ...there's miles and miles between those two.
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby OldMarriedLady » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:34 am

Bear wrote:In that context I apologize for my previous post. :( My only intention was congratulations and praise.

No worries - I knew what you meant.

Bear wrote:I'm curious though: did your DH tease you or did you feel teased?

Both. I don't know if teasing is the word that would best explain it though. I felt ...... minimized? Insignificant? Dismissed? Not taken seriously, like everything I do is fodder for a joke or silly comment (or oftentimes no comment at all).

It doesn't help that he had absolutely nothing else to say about that incident until over a week later when I told him his response wasn't exactly what I had hoped for and that the therapist agreed. I always have to drag things out of him, and they usually come out in the form of an apology which wouldn't have been forthcoming if I hadn't complained. Then, when he does say something I would have liked to hear, it feels like it's insincere and just said to placate me.

Last year, OldMarriedLady wrote:[My DH] said "what are you talking about? I see your face all the time." I said "yeah, during sex, but have you noticed that I never let you see it during an orgasm?" He said "I would love to see that. I think it would be a real turn-on." I said "I've never even seen it since I can never keep my eyes open - it feels like I'm just frowning a lot." He said "well yeah, because it's intense - I'd really like to see that". :P

Two years ago, OldMarriedLady wrote:Somewhere in my mind, a little 4th grader is expecting everyone to laugh at her goofy face. The "everyone" in this situation though is my DH. I don't truly trust DH not to laugh at me.

So, instead of feeling as though I gave DH something he really wanted to see, I got exactly what I had always feared - being told that I look funny. Not flat out being laughed at, but pretty close.

Last year, OldMarriedLady wrote:It's getting a lot easier for me to have conversations with DH about my problems and peculiarities, and sometimes I think he's actually listening. :roll: :lol: Still not sure if he's fully understanding, but he's listening.

I'm pretty sure he still doesn't really "get it". Since he has no idea what self-consciousness feels like and had no experience with being a friendless weirdo growing up in a loony bin of a home, he can't understand why some seemingly ordinary things are so difficult for me to do. He's probably getting as tired of it as I am. :?
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Bear » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:58 am

I wish I had some brilliance to share. Please know none of this is silly,

[Treading very lightly... ;) ] I imagine that EVERYBODY looks a little funny with their unencumbered 'O face' on. :0

Which leads me to vvv.
OldMarriedLady wrote:I'm pretty sure he still doesn't really "get it". Since he has no idea what self-consciousness feels like and had no experience with being a friendless weirdo growing up in a loony bin of a home, he can't understand why some seemingly ordinary things are so difficult for me to do.


Empathy as purely an intellectual pursuit.

It is hard to truly empathize outside ones experience.

What if your DH never 'gets it'?

Does he need to get it?

Can the fourth grader and the old married lady join forces just say [insert favorite inappropriate phrase here] I'm moving on just for me?
The same women who are ready to defend their men through thick and thin are...lucid about...the thickness of his head.
Love is not blind; that is the last thing it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby OldMarriedLady » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:08 am

Bear wrote:I imagine that EVERYBODY looks a little funny with their unencumbered 'O face' on. :0

I'm sure they do, but if a person knows their spouse is very sensitive to teasing, it would be best not to tell them that. If they have the kind of relationship where they can easily joke about those types of things, then yeah, go ahead.

I laughed it off at first because a) I'm the kind of person who tries to laugh stuff off all the time, and b) I had chalked it up to his post-coital incoherence and assumed that later on he'd tell me what he really thought about it. That never happened so I guess amusement is the only response he had to seeing my O face.

The real problem here is that I keep (stupidly) expecting, or hoping that, DH will be like all the other guys I read about, the way they respond to and interact with their wives.

Bear wrote:
What if your DH never 'gets it'?

Does he need to get it?

I'm pretty sure he won't, and no, I guess he doesn't "need" to. It would be nice if he did, but it's not a necessity. We've managed for 30-some years with him not getting it.

Bear wrote:Can the fourth grader and the old married lady join forces just say [insert favorite inappropriate phrase here] I'm moving on just for me?

But it's not for me. If I never was able to be exposed during sex, it would be fine with me because it's more comfortable that way. I'm trying to do all this so that DH can enjoy the results. If I wasn't married I would never have sought therapy to change my quirks because they would be irrelevant. They're only a problem in the context of a sexual relationship with someone else.
"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can."
(From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Hiswifeagain » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:51 am

OldMarriedLady wrote:But it's not for me. If I never was able to be exposed during sex, it would be fine with me because it's more comfortable that way. I'm trying to do all this so that DH can enjoy the results. If I wasn't married I would never have sought therapy to change my quirks because they would be irrelevant. They're only a problem in the context of a sexual relationship with someone else.


"A Christian is held captive by anything that hinders the abundant and effective Spirit-filled life God planned for her." Beth Moore Breaking Free bible study

You are held captive by this feeling of not liking how you look (me too, but like you, improving), anxiety about what your dh is thinking about you and how you look. You have mentioned doing CBT and as I go to DBT therapy, which is somewhat related, I know that they teach skills to overcome anxiety and bad coping strategies. Those are areas we are in bondage. God didn't design us to be anxious and insecure.

If you haven't done that Bible study recently, I'd highly recommend it. You can buy the download of the video portion at Lifeway.com. You can get the whole series for around 50 bucks. The workbook is a must and that's around 15 bucks. Worth the investment for sure!
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Bear » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:28 am

OML: I know we have similar senses of humor, so hopefully you get where I'm going here...
OldMarriedLady wrote:But it's not for me. If I never was able to be exposed during sex, it would be fine with me because it's more comfortable that way. I'm trying to do all this so that DH can enjoy the results.

This ^ seems to me like the Dreaded Question: "Does this dress make me look fat?"
http://youtu.be/4F4qzPbcFiA
The smart guy answers: "You look beautiful".
The dope answers: "Umm, maybe a little".
The idiot answers: "No, it's your butt.."
The wise man knows the question has little to do with the dress at all. ;)

I'm not sure your DHs' enjoyment really matters. The dress that fits and flatters can be just for you. It may be discouraging that DH has no fashion sense, and may care less what you wear. But just 'cause one is comfortable in sweats' doesn't make 'dressing for the occasion' a bad thing.

The outfit for feeling good about ourselves and the outfit for feeling comfortable don't always come from the same part of our closet.

OldMarriedLady wrote:If I wasn't married I would never have sought therapy to change my quirks because they would be irrelevant. They're only a problem in the context of a sexual relationship with someone else.


^ Dear OML I think your sooo wrong :(
I appreciate the tough place your in and I expect from there it's hard to see the fruit... But you have done something very brave, and been disappointed, and survived. THAT IS VICTORY.

I'm praying for freedom in your marriage bed...your freedom for you. Full stop. Praying for the liberty to wear the sweats and the ballroom gown interchangeably whenever you darn well please.

---
In Chestertons' "The Man Who Was Thursday" The guests are asked to put on costumes. These costumes really speak to the wearers true identity; one they don't really recognize themselves.

"As he passed out of the room he flung the folds across his shoulder with a gesture, his sword out at an angle, and he had all the swagger of a troubadour. For these disguises did not disguise, but reveal."
The same women who are ready to defend their men through thick and thin are...lucid about...the thickness of his head.
Love is not blind; that is the last thing it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby OldMarriedLady » Sun May 03, 2015 9:09 pm

Well, I did another thing Wednesday night that I've never done before ....... I had my DH read my posts here. :shock: (I've shown him an odd post here and there over the years, but mostly just funny stuff.) I explained to him what this particular thread is about (and that it's been dragging on for over 3 years :roll: ), and then showed him my posts from 4/27 to 4/29 (and the replies as well).

He turned around from the computer, looked really sad, and hugged me. He said "do you want to talk about it?" I said "I did - in those posts. That's pretty much how I feel." I had caught him on his way to bed (to sleep, not for sex) so we decided to talk about it another time.

Last night over dinner he said he felt really bad about what he said to me that night, and that he probably needs some sensitivity training. :lol: I told him again how the biggest problem I have is that I keep expecting him to be like other guys but he's very unique. I told him about the countless posts from husbands on TMB, waxing poetic about how pleasing their wife is the best part of sex no matter how long it takes, nothing on this earth compares to seeing your wife's face during an O, etc. etc. He said "I think these guys are all just blowing smoke". :roll:

Somehow the conversation got off track, with him discussing the mechanics of how we have sex, rather than the emotional aspect of it (for me anyway). He thought I was complaining about the way I have to go about getting an orgasm after sex, which is not a problem at all right now. (I'd definitely like to work on having orgasms during PIV, but that's lowest on my priority list at the moment.) I could not get a straight answer out of him about any of the emotional issues I was trying to discuss.

So - I still don't know whether I should keep trying to get past the few remaining hurdles I have, or if I should just stop the therapy. It's no longer about my sexual issues anyway and I don't know whether I should (or can) re-direct the therapy back to that. I told DH that all of this work I've been doing the past three years is simply to benefit him, not me. He said "oh, you don't need to do this to boost your own self-esteem or anything?" He is truly unconcerned whether he'll ever see my O face again, so really, why am I putting myself through all this?

I tried again tonight to start a conversation about it - I said "so what did we ultimately decide about my continuing therapy?" All he said was "well, if it helps your self-esteem, then I think you should continue". I have an appointment on Tuesday so I guess I'll talk to the therapist about it and see what she thinks. I was reading some stuff on the web the other day about cognitive behavioral therapy, and apparently it's only supposed to be a short-term thing, 6 months at the most. Whatever problem a person has should be solved by then. I must be a really hopeless case. :?
"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can."
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby seeking perspective » Sun May 03, 2015 9:31 pm

Well, aren't you just full of new growth these days? :)

If the therapy is helping you be more comfortable and authentic in the marriage bed, keep at it whether or not your husband seems to care about the same issues you do.

Your self esteem matters, and you are worth your own effort.

On the other hand, if you really were just doing this for him and he is happy, then maybe your therapy work is done .
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Hiswifeagain » Mon May 04, 2015 3:50 am

seeking perspective wrote:
On the other hand, if you really were just doing this for him and he is happy, then maybe your therapy work is done .


You may be right about the therapy work being done, but the spiritual work isn't done. OML, If you feel like hiding yourself from your spouse you are still in bondage and believing some kind of lie from the enemy. God tells us we are made in His image and that we are beautiful. We don't need to fear anyone or anything except God Himself.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Galatians 5:1

This is about more than an "O" face. Don't make peace, with your bondage Sister, because if you give him an opening the enemy will exploit it later.

Love in Christ,
HWA
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Bear » Mon May 04, 2015 12:53 pm

OldMarriedLady wrote:Well, I did another thing Wednesday night that I've never done before ....... I had my DH read my posts here. :shock:

Dude*, amazing! That’s strength and vulnerability walking hand in hand right there.

OldMarriedLady wrote:…He turned around from the computer, looked really sad, and hugged me...

This brought on a smile and tears at the same time when I read it.

OldMarriedLady wrote: Last night over dinner he said he felt really bad about what he said to me that night, and that he probably needs some sensitivity training. :lol: I told him again how the biggest problem I have is that I keep expecting him to be like other guys but he's very unique

Seems this can be the slippery side of TMB, the risk of unhealthy comparison. Actually the sensitivity training quip sounds pretty self aware. Seems to me your DH is really a sweetheart without any good tools of expression.

OldMarriedLady wrote:...He said "I think these guys are all just blowing smoke". :roll:

Maybe we are, I know how you feel about his cigars ;), maybe you sharing this thread can be a gateway drug so he can pop in occasionally for a ‘hit of the good stuff’. 

OldMarriedLady wrote: I could not get a straight answer out of him about any of the emotional issues I was trying to discuss.

Babysweet and I have made amazing progress in our communication in the last few years. It’s funny though; there are still some things that the other doesn’t ‘get’. …At least the other doesn’t ‘get it’ like we each thinks/hopes/expects the other should.

I think we each want that true heart empathy connection in these (few remaining) areas, and all we have managed is a rational / intellectual acknowledgement of the others perspective. I’m beginning to learn that maybe that’s OK. Perhaps we are looking too much toward ‘other validation’ where we need to be more self-reliant of God-reliant around those particular needs / desires. (Maybe reading / revisiting the book Passionate Marriage is a good idea?...)

OldMarriedLady wrote: I told DH that all of this work I've been doing the past three years is simply to benefit him, not me.

I still think this is the kernel that’s not clicking yet.
What if none of this is for your DH at all? Do you see your value, growth, and accomplishments?

Maybe you’re missing them because your viewing them through your DHs glasses.

---

Random thought: The last chapter of Jonah always threw me. As a young man I totally didn't get it. With a little more of life and loss behind me…I still don’t get really get it like I should… But, I see more of me in there than I’m comfortable in admitting. Our own expectations and definitions of success can be a dangerous thing; they can hide or blind us to the power of our obedient actions and purpose.
---
* Sorry about the ‘Dude’: ‘Dear sweet sister’ seems a bit sappy. ‘Honey’ & ‘Sweetie’ seem inappropriate. It’s the best term of honor and compassion I could muster.
The same women who are ready to defend their men through thick and thin are...lucid about...the thickness of his head.
Love is not blind; that is the last thing it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby OldMarriedLady » Mon May 04, 2015 3:06 pm

Bear wrote:Seems to me your DH is really a sweetheart without any good tools of expression.

During our discussion, I told him that I really CAN tell that he loves me, even without any direct expression of it. The guy couldn't be romantic even if his life depended on it. I think that's why he thinks all the romantic guys on TMB are full of it, because he can't relate to or even understand the concept of romance. If I were to have him read some of the threads, I'm sure he'd just roll his eyes and make smart remarks. (Maybe I'll try that tonight ....)

Bear wrote: (Maybe reading / revisiting the book Passionate Marriage is a good idea?...)

Noooooooooooo! :lol: I found that book impossible to get through. I couldn't understand half of it and the other half bored me to death. :oops: None of it seemed relevant to my marriage or resonated with me.

Bear wrote: Do you see your value, growth, and accomplishments?

Well yeah, but the accomplishments are strictly sexual and pertain only to how I relate to my DH. (Other than the eye contact with others thing which got fixed during all the other therapy.) The fact that I can watch myself having sex now doesn't mean anything to anyone other than DH. Like I said before, if I wasn't married I would have never even thought of my issues as being issues, and certainly wouldn't have sought therapy to overcome them. There would be nobody I was hiding from. I wouldn't need to be able to make eye contact during an orgasm, or be comfortable with being seen naked if I was the only person I was having sex with. :wink: This is what I mean when I say this is all for DH's benefit. If not for DH, none of this would be considered an accomplishment.

Bear wrote:* Sorry about the ‘Dude’

:lol: Totally OK; I use that term myself a lot. I'm very male-brained and a bit of a tomboy, so one of DH's nicknames for me is "Butch".

Hiswifeagain wrote:You may be right about the therapy work being done, but the spiritual work isn't done. OML, If you feel like hiding yourself from your spouse you are still in bondage and believing some kind of lie from the enemy. God tells us we are made in His image and that we are beautiful. We don't need to fear anyone or anything except God Himself.

This is about more than an "O" face. Don't make peace, with your bondage Sister, because if you give him an opening the enemy will exploit it later.

I know. :( I'm really struggling these days. That bible study sounds like a good idea.
"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can."
(From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby ledgemoor » Tue May 05, 2015 8:10 am

OldMarriedLady wrote: The guy couldn't be romantic even if his life depended on it.


DW & I were watching this video made me think of you and Old Married Man.
http://www.marriagetoday.com/the-key-to-romance/

A part of the "problem" is that men and women view romance differently. He might be romantic in his own way.

Maybe he would watch it?
Everything you ever wanted in life is just outside your comfort zone (Jamie Lee Curtis)

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby OldMarriedLady » Wed May 06, 2015 6:15 pm

OldMarriedLady wrote:I've stopped drinking

No, I haven't. :oops: :(

If anyone feels lead, please pray for me. I don't know what else is going to work. I am just so lost.
"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can."
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Bear » Wed May 06, 2015 6:32 pm

You and OldMarriedMan have been in my thoughts and prayers very regularly for a while now. -That won't change.
The same women who are ready to defend their men through thick and thin are...lucid about...the thickness of his head.
Love is not blind; that is the last thing it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.
-GK Chesterton

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Hiswifeagain » Wed May 06, 2015 6:41 pm

Praying for you OML. ::pray
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Hiswifeagain » Wed May 06, 2015 7:07 pm

OldMarriedLady wrote:
OldMarriedLady wrote:I've stopped drinking

No, I haven't. :oops: :(

If anyone feels lead, please pray for me. I don't know what else is going to work. I am just so lost.


I really hope you will get that Breaking Free bible study. Some of the key verses are Isaiah 61:1-4. They are about setting the captives free. I had this feeling that I should send you a PM and I had typed out those verses for you and when I hit submit, I saw that the message I had typed to UF on his Air thread was below my message to you, so I went and deleted the message. Pretty strange. So anyway, that's why you probably are getting 2 notifications of a message from me.

I am praying for you! You really can be free!
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby Leah » Wed May 06, 2015 7:38 pm

Breaking Free is an awesome study.
Leah

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby OldMarriedLady » Wed May 10, 2017 8:20 pm

I thought of this thread yesterday after a visit to my therapist (who I have been seeing for 5 years now, which is about the length of this thread). She pronounced me "relatively stable" (mentally) and said that I don't need to see her again until September (I had gotten down to only seeing her once a month in the past year or so). It's just funny (and sad) that the original reason I started seeing her still hasn't been resolved. Our sessions had devolved into only talk about my job and the related stress and depression. I've been employed by the same company since 1978 - 39 years now - it was my first and only job that I started when I was still in high school. :shock: It's retail and not a positive work environment, but it's been a steady source of income all these years and I'm really not qualified to do anything else. It's also too late in my life (55 years old) to think about changing careers or pursuing an education. I can't retire for another 12 years if I want to get my full pension and Social Security benefits.

It's interesting and a little sad for me to read through this thread and remember what a wide-eyed optimist I used to be back in the day. I don't know what exactly has happened over the last two years that has made me so cynical and bitter (although I think our daughter's infidelity and failed marriage may have contributed), but I am a very different person than the one who started this thread way back when. DH and I have definitely improved our marriage by leaps and bounds since I joined TMB in 2010, and we are very much in love and committed to one another. I will forever be grateful to all of the wonderful people here who supported and inspired me over the years. I still haven't been able to overcome some of my lifelong sexual hangups though, and I feel like a failure because of that. Since that one time in 2015, I have not been able to let DH see my face when I am having an orgasm, and we still have not found a method that will help me have an orgasm during PIV or PIA (and I used to always have an orgasm during PIA).

So - here I am still bound by fear and self-loathing, years after I sought counseling for these problems. Does any of this really matter though? As long as DH is content with our sex life (and he definitely is), should I just give it up and stop trying to overcome my past?
"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can."
(From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby SeekingChange » Wed May 10, 2017 8:27 pm

OldMarriedLady wrote:As long as DH is content with our sex life (and he definitely is), should I just give it up and stop trying to overcome my past?

No, don't give up . Finding healing and being an overcomer is for YOU. Yes, your husband and others in your life will benefit, but they aren't the main reason to keep fighting. Your freedom and healing is. Praying for you now.
Last edited by SeekingChange on Wed May 10, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irrational self-consciousness/embarrassment

Postby One-woman man » Wed May 10, 2017 8:31 pm

I agree with SC. It is a worthy goal.
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