Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Any sexual problems or difficulties not listed in a specific section.
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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby doug-h » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:54 pm

SeekingChange wrote:I was reply more to this line of thinking...
FoxluvsBunny wrote:It is a sin, but it makes no sense that it could affect your marriage if you and your partner are both the only people you've been sexual with.

^This, I have experience in.



Actually, taken only in context of the article, she is logically correct.
The arguement made in the article was based specifically on the biological (chemical) bonding process, not the spiritual bond

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby poetess » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:14 pm

Bunny, one way (I'm sure there are others) that premarital sex could affect people after marriage is that it could affect the choice of whom you marry. Sex is meant to bond, and if people do the bonding before they do the hard work of determining whether this person is a good marriage partner, they can marry foolishly. (I've seen it happen.) It also can create a short-cut--you get to know the person physically before you get to know them in any other way, and sometimes it's harder to establish other sides of the relationship. (Now, that might happen in arranged marriages too; it's not in itself a hugely compelling argument.)

It also might affect one's view of sin (it's not all that bad) or the God who established the boundaries. And what do you do when it's your daughter being tempted to sin sexually. Is it trivial? What if it's extramarital sex and not premarital--is it suddenly a serious sin then, or is it still trivial as long as you love each other? Many couples who engage in sexual activity do not marry each other, or do not marry at all--what then? Does that same sexual sin suddenly become a more serious one just because they didn't marry? (I wonder how many marriages have taken place under this reasoning--well, we already had sex, and now we have to marry or it will be a sin.) That sex might well set up a person for more sexual sin with the next person, a new early bond. To be honest, that was one reason I was able to avoid sexual sin in my twenties--I knew I might not marry at all, and I didn't want to create a yearning that might not be filled.

Also, people end up justifying sexual sin and speaking of it in watered-down terms. "It wasn't really sex, because there was no penetration." "I'm still a virgin." That demotes some forms of sex to "not really sex." Now, there is something uniquely bonding about intercourse, but I don't think that leaves all other forms of sex open to the public. ("Yeah, my husband had sexual contact with his secretary, but it wasn't really sex, since there was no penetration.")

Honestly I don't think we "need" reasons that sexual sin is harmful. We know that God has established the boundaries around sex, and we know that marriage is compared to Christ's love for the church. Unmarried people are not yet legitimately one flesh; their bodies do not belong to each other. That should be enough. Even if sexual sin leads to better marriages (as many people say it does, e.g., the "live together first" argument), the fact that God said "no" should be enough.
Marriage--what a wonderful image of Christ's love for His bride!

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby padsnd » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:26 pm

ledgemoor wrote:As for the use of the term "ruined", I agree with the article. It says premarital sex "could" ruin your changes at a successful marriage, not that it will.
God forgives and heals, but not everyone takes advantage of of that. Poetess, I would say that premarital sex "will" hurt. You cannot violate natural laws without consequence -- I'm thinking about what happened to me the other day when I took a turn too fast on my bicycle :D.


I think most would say that the term ruin implies a state that is unchangeable. To even say it "could" ruin is to say that grace does not exist. If something "could" ruin, then some individuals have no hope. That is distinctly different from saying, "it can cause serious issues that if left unresolved can ruin a marriage." The only action (or rather inaction) that actually does the ruining is not repenting and seeking His healing and restoration.





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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby SquarePants » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:30 pm

I think that articles like this do more harm than good. They discredit not only themselves, but other Christians when they overreach when trying to stretch science to promote their ideas. SeekingPerspective had it exactly right when she pointed out the article’s conflation of cause and effect of promiscuity and suicides. Correlation does not prove causation. Assuming that their data is accurate, it seems at least as likely that promiscuity is symptom, and not the cause. When discussing neurotransmitters, the authors seem to be blend well known facts with speculation, and calling it science. There’s an in-depth critique here. The article’s premise is that they are discussing science, not morality, therefore, I’m discussing the scientific aspect. This wisdom and morality of premarital behavior is another topic.

To be fair, the anti-religious non-monogamy side also promotes their own ideas based on weak science as well. It’s not hard to find articles about why humans aren’t meant to be monogamous, and I’d argue that the scientific basis for those arguments also tend to be weak. Dubious studies that come to mind are the ones that compare relative testicle sizes of humans vs monkeys, and vaginal semen retention in women when they cheat vs sex with their husband.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby IM_a_Farmwife » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:16 am

I'm not sure I agree with the article. Or maybe I'm the exception to the rule. Farmer knew I had a sexual past and rather than keeping it against me, he embraced it. Smart man, because he knew, the past is the past. Before I was married, I heard comments from men about how they all wanted virgins. I wonder about those same men today, if they are in sexless marriages. I just don't know. But it does make me wonder.

As far as me and Farmer, we were sexually indulgent before marriage. Every year that passes is better than the year before. The only exception is when I started working 50+ hours a week recently. I am determined to keep that ember glowing, ardently and with purpose. Ruined? Hardly!

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby ghostrider » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:21 am

IM_a_Farmwife wrote:. Before I was married, I heard comments from men about how they all wanted virgins. I wonder about those same men today, if they are in sexless marriages. I just don't know. But it does make me wonder.


Good point FW. I'm glad my wife was a virgin, but I've never understood the near worship of virgin status. Sexual sin can be forgiven and overcome, and making sex into the unpardonable sin causes a lot more harm than good - even if a person never had sex before marriage, this perspective can still be unhealthy inside a marriage.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:31 am

Yeah in this day and age probably almost all secular people have sex before marriage. Some of them hv bad marriages others have good ones... Its wrong but def not a death sentence to a marriage. I know non christians who have had sex or lived together for yrs before marriage and seem very happy. Doesnt mean its ok.. But it didnt lead to relational or sex doom or anything. I have a friend who was sexually lose at a time in college and would do it w random guys and she loves having monogomous sex w her fiance now (she's a newer Christian, fiance is not... i don't know if she realizes it's wrong; but they've been together for almost 10 years even though some of the time was in an open relationship... if they've been happy and have happy sex for this long, i can't see it ending when they finally tie the knot in 2 years)... Having sex with lots of people didnt make her not alble enjoy it w one person...from a biochemical standpoint

From a moral standpoint, for the believer, there is Grace that covers sins through the blood of Christ (but we should not keep sinning so that Grace may increase, but for those who have already sinned in this area)... He can forgive and turn ugly into beauty... restore what the locusts have eaten... Marriage dynamics is a complex interplay btwn two broken individuals and takes work on both ends whether or not they were virgins imho... I know it can cause issues but many things can... Many who had sex before marriage hv great sex lives and marriages and anyone who has read here a bit knows the opposite is true too.... Bottom line is its wrong before the Lord can lead to issues in some buy not all cases... But there is healing and forgiveness if there are lasting hurts and damage from that sin. Just my opinion

As a side note, thinking about this, i do think that we actually do have some consequences due to our sexual behavior before marriage. Sexual stuff was always a part of our relationship from the very beginning, and with our already bad communication, it set the standard for leaving big communicational voids since we'd get together every few weeks and have fun and be sexual. i think it was part of our bond and dynamic from the beginning... part of the reason he wanted to commit to marrying me (because he thought that once we were committed then all of our sin in that area was ok... he felt it was wrong too until we committed to get married... i thought it was wrong until we were married). That said, we would have had issues regardless, we probably just would have known more about them and would have been more serious w/ things before marriage and worked through some more of them when dating and engaged. but the Lord works and restores... maybe if i was less "sexually indulgent" we'd have a harder time being comfortable in that area now, because with our sin there developed a level of comfort... there was a time i was very sexually closed... or maybe if he hadn't been sexual with people he would have a harder time pleasing me (leading to less sexual satisfaction)... if i didn't develop more of a yearning for sexual things from my past relationship that got somewhat sexual, i wonder sometimes if my husband would have waited for me early in our relationship before we really knew each other and we were less mature, if i had said that i felt uncomfortable kissing and touching... Or what our dating dynamic would hv been like...who knows? i hope so... no we didn't ruin our relationship/marriage, but we have consequences... and maybe that is part of why it feels like we are building a foundation since we got married of functional communication and getting to know each other in ways we never did, or wanted to...
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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby Job29Man » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:20 pm

Sorry, I got lost in so many words. :oops: Farmwife, I'm glad to hear of your good outcome.

So, are there other Christians here who were promiscuous before marriage and had hot sex then got married and had enduring sexual pleasure without years of disconnect?
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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby IM_a_Farmwife » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:09 pm

I need to make the point that I did not give my heart to Jesus until the morning of December 7, 1994. What happened to me that day was life-changing. It took three months of processing what happened to me before I shared with anyone, including farmer. I also married later, way after college. If I would have met my farmer at age 18, I believe the history would have been different.

If the girl (me) back in '86 would have been saved at the time, the outcome would look quite different. God is good. My farmer is too. My marriage is good despite it all.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby Vanna » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:59 pm

We were sexually active together for our 6 years engagement before marriage- after 2 years of marriage intimacy had died and we were on the verge of divorce. During our engagement, I obsessed over his sexual past as well, and he only had a few others in his history. I lied to him about my past, intercourse wise it was one guy before hubby, twice, and a really selfish, lousy lay, and hubby was plenty jealous when he realized he wasn't my first. I didn't tell him about all the handjobs, etc. Having a sexual past for us was a mine field, and I see my son going through this as well, he was a virgin but his fiancé has a rough and worldly background. I see him struggling with anger, he is quick to forgive his prior porn use, and slow to let her past go.

Sexual history can throw a lot of insecurity and hurt into the already difficult bonding process of marriage. It's not just about God forgiving us- it's dealing with brokenness, expectations, and wrong mindset. The worst thing premarital promiscuity and porn did for me was cheapen the value of intimacy in my mind. It was just another thing you do that keeps a guy coming around, cause if you don't, they replace you with someone who will.
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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby Job29Man » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:01 pm

Thanks for being vulnerable and sharing those things.
Wanting to become like Job, as described in the Bible, the book of Job chapter 29. Hence the screen name.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby ledgemoor » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:20 pm

padsnd wrote:I think most would say that the term ruin implies a state that is unchangeable. To even say it "could" ruin is to say that grace does not exist. If something "could" ruin, then some individuals have no hope. That is distinctly different from saying, "it can cause serious issues that if left unresolved can ruin a marriage."

Ok, "may", "might", "could" or "can" -- whatever floats your boat. I like your wording better. But we're arguing semantics and not substance.

God graciously forgives, no argument. He heals also. But healing of a marriage is usually a lot of hard work and not guaranteed, especially when there are two parties involved. And, we can't rule out the possibility that someone who is promiscuous may lose the desire to marry altogether.
The only action (or rather inaction) that actually does the ruining is not repenting and seeking His healing and restoration.

Well, that's kinda my point. Not everyone is a believer. True, some have rejected Him. But others simply don't know about it.
SquarePants wrote:Dubious studies that come to mind are the ones that compare ... vaginal semen retention in women when they cheat vs sex with their husband.

Most of these arguments assume Darwinian evolution. If that is false, than any conclusions based on them will be false. I searched for "vaginal semen retention" and found nothing. If you have a link handy I would be interested -- it sounds like someone finally took a different tack.

Anyway, there are going to be things in most any article or book that someone is going to disagree with. I fully understand how Christians can take secular scientific literature that supports our beliefs and go overly gung-ho with it. But to me, the takeaway is that (a) we were created with chemical systems that aid in bonding sexually to one person, and (b) our behavior can affect how well this system works.
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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby neilethere » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:51 pm

Job29Man wrote:So, are there other Christians here who were promiscuous before marriage and had hot sex then got married and had enduring sexual pleasure without years of disconnect?


Yup. I've shared before we are the result of a meteoric affair (I hate using that word), lived together for 5 years and then got married. 16 years later the sex is still great.

Funnily enough I would suggest the fallout from our sin - the consequences that God doesn't take away when He forgives - have affected us in other areas, but not in bed.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby Kilarin » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:16 pm

I tried to address my concerns about the way we address this issue in this thread
Summary for those who don't want to read the whole thing:

I think we should talk about sexual impurity in the same way we would talk about luxury credit card debt. It's always a good thing to warn people to avoid building up a huge luxury credit card debt, because it makes life MUCH more difficult. Starting your adult life without a lot of luxury credit card debt is always the most advantageous way. BUT, if you already have a lot of luxury credit card debt, you may be facing some difficulties, but your life is not over. You can, with work, pay off that debt and then go on to have a very successful financial life. AND, just because you did NOT build up a lot of luxury credit card debt does NOT guarantee you will have a perfect financial life. There is more to it than just that.

It's always a good idea to encourage people to start their marriage sexually pure. That is God's plan, and its the best way. But if you've made mistakes, it may mean some more work, but God is big enough to help you overcome those mistakes and move on to have a very successful marriage. Also, just because you start your marriage sexually pure does not guarantee you will have a perfect married sex life. There is more to it than just that.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby SquarePants » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:15 pm

ledgemoor wrote:I searched for "vaginal semen retention" and found nothing. If you have a link handy I would be interested -

Regarding the "vaginal semen retention" study, I first saw it presented on some TV show about sex. I'm sorry, but I don't have a link. The dubious study supposedly showed that women who cheated on their husbands retained more semen in their vagina compared to the semen retained when they had sex with their husbands. They were making the claim that this supported the idea that natural selection favored women who cheat. If I remember correctly, the women collected semen after sex as it dribbled out of their vagina. The collected semen this way in a vial after sex with their husband and with their non-husband. Doesn't anyone take this seriously? How many data points did they get? How do you go about finding women willing to do this? This study seems absurd on many levels.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby txtwindad » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:04 pm

This entire concept is flawed. We so desperately want there to be a direct correlation between premarital sex and marriage problems. It only seems fair, right? And yet that is not how sin and consequences work in sex and marriage or anything else in life. We avoid sin because God tells us to. Not because of some reward system. The unfortunate truth is that many people that are promiscuous before marriage have fantastic sex lives inside their marriage. And others that abstain from sex before marriage have horrible sex lives after.
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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby neilethere » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:09 am

SquarePants wrote:the women collected semen after sex as it dribbled out of their vagina


bet there was a queue to join that study.

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Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby God's Geek » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:10 am

Job29Man wrote:So, are there other Christians here who were promiscuous before marriage and had hot sex then got married and had enduring sexual pleasure without years of disconnect?

We don't totally meet your qualifications, but we do fall on that side of the equation. Gauselin and I met in college, were both born-again Christians raised in the church and in non-broken homes. At that time we were both less attentive to our faith than we should have been. Out from under our parents direct supervision, we were learning about aspects of the world we had not yet experienced.

For my part, having been much less than popular in High School, I found myself in a very different world where people LIKED being around me and I had no lack of girls willing to go out with me. I didn't immediately fall into a promiscuous lifestyle, but over two years I slowly drifted farther and farther from God and had several companions. By the time Gauselin and I met, I was no longer a virgin and quite cavalier in my attitude about sex. I thought sexual activity was part of being in an exclusive relationship. I never became a "any girl will do" type of jerk, though I was a jerk nonetheless.

Gauselin came to college with real questions about her family faith. Like me she found a new lease on life in college, making friends faster than before and able to establish relationships without the necessity of "parental approval." We were friends for a year, working on the school newspaper, and she was aware of my attitude. We started seriously dating and then after a few months had sex for the first time. It did NOT include sky rockets. In fact, having been raised to hold "virginity" as a very high standard, it really shook her self esteem that she had "let" me go that far. We almost broke up after that.

We were both repentant and absolved not to "go there" again, but for the next two years we struggled EVERY TIME we were together. We tried to keep ourselves public, we discussed it with our pastor, we talked about "hot spots" to avoid, but hormones raged and we continued to have sex. It felt like a skipping record (anyone here remember THAT?). After a year of dating, we became engaged. A year later, we were married. Yes, it was out of necessity (she was pregnant), but we knew we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together.

Now, almost 27 years later, we are still married and are having the best sex of our lives, without having had any major time of "drought". There have been ups and downs, but mostly credited to kids, stress and changes. We repented to each other and to God for failing to follow His plan, and who knows what "may have been." Yet He guided us to good mentors, we became involved in marriage ministry at our church for many years, and are now serving as missionaries.

Lasting repercussions? Again, I don't know. Results? We ultimately drew much closer to God than we had been as teens and have a heart for marriages that reflect God.

I do know that we strive to live each new day for Him and continue to serve each other as best we can.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby bigloop » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:35 am

txtwindad wrote:This entire concept is flawed. We so desperately want there to be a direct correlation between premarital sex and marriage problems. It only seems fair, right? And yet that is not how sin and consequences work in sex and marriage or anything else in life. We avoid sin because God tells us to. Not because of some reward system. The unfortunate truth is that many people that are promiscuous before marriage have fantastic sex lives inside their marriage. And others that abstain from sex before marriage have horrible sex lives after.


Even though you said we should avoid sin because God tells us so, the whole of your post would almost make one believe you don't think God had a reason for keeping oneself celibate until marriage. It sounds like you almost prescribe to a "it doesn't matter" attitude. I don't think you mean that. I would hope not.

Because some couples experience difficulties despite their purity prior to marriage does not disqualify God's intentions in any way. It simp,e exposes poor upbringing in one or both spouses. I'm not suggesting poor in the sense of unloving, but poor in the sense of misguided or just a lack of it in the sexual area. You can't tell young ones "sex is bad, avoid it" and expect a 20 minute ceremony to change years of negative indoctrination. Nor can we expect them to listen or WITNESS years of their parents moaning and groaning about "sorry spouses" and go into marriage thinking "this will be great."

Why not just ditch all of God's word? I mean if there is no reason to have faith in what He says when He says "do things my way and I'll run your cup over" then "let's eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die."

Are you or did you tell your children it matters not if they are celibate before marriages? I doubt it. If you didn't, then did you say "just because God said so?"

Sometimes that in fact may be all we have to answer why God gives certain edicts. But it is in those times we have to fall back on "I will do so because I love God because He first loved me." How do we know that God loves us? Is it not because of the blessings we recognize comes from Him? Do we think God blesses those that do not love Him? Why do we think He tells us how to live? Is it not because He made us and knows what will happen if we choose sin - both in this life and the one to come? Yet He still gives us the choice - and the opportunity to learn from our choices and the choices of others.

Yes, there is repentance, grace and abundance available after sin. So what shall we do, increase in sin so grace may abound?

I've never known of a sin having a good consequence.

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Re: Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?

Postby Kilarin » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:03 am

bigloop wrote:the whole of your post would almost make one believe you don't think God had a reason for keeping oneself celibate until marriage. It sounds like you almost prescribe to a "it doesn't matter" attitude. I don't think you mean that. I would hope not.

I didn't read it that way at all. He was saying that the reason we obey God's rules is because they are God's rules, and we should obey them whether we can see and understand the real world consequences or not.

I still think discussing the real world consequences can be very helpful, but I completely agree with txtwindad on the root of obedience.

For example, suppose someone argued, "you shouldn't steal because it will make you end up in jail" I would agree that this is a good thing to point out. BUT, suppose someone comes to you and says, "I've got a way for you to steal, and I can prove to you that you will not get caught and end up in jail" If avoiding jail is your only reason for not stealing, why not go ahead?

Discussing real world consequence helps us to understand some of the reasons behind God's laws. But the ROOT of our obedience to God has to be because he has given us rules, and they are RIGHT. Not because we are afraid of the real world consequences.


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