Sick and tired

Any sexual problems or difficulties not listed in a specific section.
Unfulfilled
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Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:50 pm

I am sick and tired of being, or feeling like I'm being punished for having hope.

I'm so sick and tired of being foolish enough to think that things will change. To have hope that things are or might change only to yet again for the one millionth time get your heart ripped out and smashed on the rocks!

When will I get it through my head that despite all that I try to do or change it is pointless? Why do I still believe and hope when nothing ever changes?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. What the heck do they call it when despite changing things you still get the same fruitless result? Craziness? Foolishness?

I'm just again wondering what the heck am I even trying for? It just always results in my hopes being crushed and pain. If I only had zero hopes or expectations life would be sooooo much easier! Why do I put myself through this torture?

Maybe if I stopped banging my head against the wall, maybe the pain would go away! Why won't I ever learn that nothing is ever going to change?

It has even years, decades of concerted effort with no tangible result? When is enough, enough?

You cannot get blood from a stone. Yet I foolishly cling to the faith and hope that I somehow, one day will be successful with what seems impossible! When am I going to get a clue and stop squeezing the stone and just gently set the stone aside and look for another that will actually love me back?

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Vanna » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:51 am

Unfulfilled - (that user name needs some help, it's super negative)

See if any of this hits home for describing your tendencies:

    I've always been especially sensitive.

    I desire a deep connection with my spouse but never seem to get it.

    I've had a history of idealizing others early on in relationships.

    I easily feel disappointed, rejected, or unwanted.

    I sometimes become angry when my expectations aren't met.

    I can feel betrayed, abandoned when others are not emotionally available.

    I experience internal conflict and a high level of emotional stress in relationships.

    My own conflicted responses sometimes confuse even me.

    Others have said they feel like they are walking on eggshells around me.

    I have difficulty excepting the weaknesses of others.

    I usually feel angry instead of sad over disappointment with others.

    I have difficulty being willing to reengage when anger blocks out other emotions.

    I tend to reflect more on how others have hurt me than on my own shortcomings.

This love style is what they describe as a vascillator style. It is one of the more challenging styles to work with because of the depth of feeling, anger, and anxiety they tend to experience. If your wife is an avoider, parts of her shut down when you press for more like you do, then you go into an emotional spin cycle that just confirms she needs to stay there.

I really do encourage you to get that book- How We Love. The dynamic you have is one of the hardest to get to look objectively at the pattern and work with it.

You are right: doing the same thing over and over isn't helping your situation. Try the book.
After 28 years and six kids, through the good and bad, by the grace of God, things keep getting better and better. ::wed

Unfulfilled
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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:08 pm

Only about one of those things listed apply to me.

The quiz and the description of that book, of the love styles do not seem to fit either myself or my wife at all.

I am not a vacillator. I am one of the most consistent people around. Yes I have high expectations of myself and others. To expect less and not strive for perfection in order to reach excellence is to settle for mediocrity. Which is a waste of Gods gifts.

P.S.

I will change the user name when it no longer accurately describes the reality of the situation. Until then it is simply an accurate description.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby 2pack » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:52 am

In following your posts the last couple of years sometimes I feel that your wife is consciously or subconsciously living a self fulfilling prophecy. Making no effort out of fear and self loathing all while waiting for you to blow up or leave or something to be able to tell herself "See, I knew I was unlovable, not enough and I knew he would do...x,y or z..."
So many times we read here that you may have to make things very uncomfortable to break the status quo, but in your case I think she would go, "See, I knew this would eventually happen and I was right..."
I know counseling is not going so well. Is there the opportunity to attend any sort of a marriage workshop weekend in the area where you live? It seems she is living in her own shell of somewhat isolation, which is right where the enemy would want her to be. Sometimes getting a larger perspective rather than only a counseling setting could open the eyes a little. Just a thought.
I'm a moth flyin' into the light of it's doom - You wrap me up in your love cocoon...

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:50 am

2pack

Great analysis. I think you may very well be right about her.

I have tried to penetrate her walls at least a million different ways. She is not just refusing me sexually, she is just refusing to change. She likes to think she is working but as you say it is a self fulfilling prophecy.

She absolutely believes nothing she does is good enough. And as you say if I react or were to leave or something, I think you are exactly right she would have just confirmed for herself that she was right.

Her valentines cars to me was the normal sort of thing. But she signed it and underneath she added "I will try to do better"

Last night o asked her what she meant by that. What she was going to try to get better at. Her answer was completely vague "everything".

When I asked her that I really didn't know what that meant, she responded "be a better wife".

At that point she seemed uncomfortable with my questioning so for good or ill, I left it at that. Maybe I should have pushed further but I'm pretty sure she would have lost patience and snapped back at me if I pushed.

Not sure if she would go to a marriage encounter.

she says she wants to "try to be better", but the only thing she is trying is to initiate sex. I have noticed this and is why Saturday morning I was foolish enough to think we could make love. But in my mind there is more to "trying" and effort than just a couple minutes when we are in bed. I'm. Of saying her initiating is t hard work for her. But she is doing nothing else to support that. She is not reading or anything. And as you say stopped counseling etc. part of that is financial. But she seems to find money to do lots of other things. Somehow our marriage is not up to that high a priority. Which also makes me sad.

I'm trying to be patient, but my patience is wearing thin when I see such lack of determined effort.

You states that she seems to be living in "somewhat isolation and in her own little she'll"

I would state that it is not "somewhat". It is in complete isolation. She will talk to no one, reach out to no one. Including her counselor, me or even "seeking perspective" who she had emailed once about a year ago. Only to have my wife clam up and never reach out again or respond to my knowledge.

She wants to do this herself. And that has proven to be a failure for 27 years. Why she thinks that now it will be different is beyond me. I felt we and she was making real progress when she was going to counseling. But I think that scared her and is why she stopped. The money issue is just a very convenient excuse. I'm sure if there was any cost to a marriage encounter weekend etc she would "pull" the money or some other excuse to brush it off.

Yes DW is an avoider. I don't think there is any doubt about that. And you make a good point in that she is living a self fulfilling prophecy of her own making.

I just do not know how to break through? I'm just so tired of the fight.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Alistair » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:47 pm

Would a therapeutic separation help?

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:40 pm

Just to be clear, when I say I'm tired of the fight. I'm not saying we are fighting and quarrelsome etc. I am speaking of the journey to improve the marriage.

A separation I think would make things worse. I think it would result in complete giving up. With my wife It would only prove to confirm to her that she is not good enough and never will be.

I have however STRONGLY considered leaving the bed. Several times I have come very close to doing that. But I think that has a higher degree of risk of backfiring on me than providing any sort of motivation for her. Especially now. It would give her another reason in her mind to quit. The one and only thing I have seen her do recently is to begin to initiate sex at least weekly, and more recently about twice a week. If I were to leave the bed now, she would be utterly deflated as I would have in her eyes (and I think she would have real justification) rejected the one thing she has worked on the hardest and knowing that sex is so important to me, to turn my back and leave the bed now would I think prove to be a catastrophic.

She has no clue the pain I'm going through and even that fact, I cannot really tell her the truth as that too will and has in the past only caused DW to withdraw further and beat herself up further with guilt in bend mind of her inadequacies. So she only withdraws further back and builds up thicker walls of defends from which she won't come out of. She frankly is not ready to hear the truth and my counselor agrees. I have to protect her from her own self and her thoughts.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Barbarah-Hephizibah » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:51 pm

Unfulfilled wrote:The one and only thing I have seen her do recently is to begin to initiate sex at least weekly, and more recently about twice a week.

Sounds like good growth on your wife's part. Why the "sick and tired" attitude?

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby kupplekansas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:43 am

Brother, you seems to be at your wit's end. Are you going for marriage counseling by yourself even if she will not join you? Have you done that?
Perhaps after YOU get some professional help and tools to use in your marriage, you just might be able to make a positive change. Then if that fails, there is always the sublimation, " Dear _____ if you will not attend counseling with me as a couple - and really participate and work toward good results, then I have no choice but to leave."
That way the decision is totally hers and she can't say she did not choose which option was presented to her. It might make her think and it will make her choose the outcome. As an above post states, your wife is consciously or subconsciously living a self fulfilling prophecy. Making no effort out of fear and self loathing all while waiting for you to blow up or leave or something to be able to tell herself "See, I knew I was unlovable, not enough and I knew he would do...x,y or z..

Blessings,

Him

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Job29Man » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:08 am

Am I reading this right? Is she saying in essence "I am not capable of doing anything right. But I can fix myself. I'm capable of that. I don't need help from anyone else on that."?
Wanting to become like Job, as described in the Bible, the book of Job chapter 29. Hence the screen name.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:01 pm

I have gone to one counseling session since her quitting and I plan to set up another soon.

Her "giving up"'sex does not mean that she is giving herself to me. Her body is there but the struggle is for her to be "present". This has always been the case where she is not "refusing" in the traditional sense as in no sex. But she can give herself physically and yet still refuse. She is refusing to be intimate while simultaneously giving her body. If that makes any sense.

Job, I think what she is doing is making excuses.n the excuse doesn't have to make any sense. I think she in counseling was getting close to revealing the core issue that she fears most. And because the counselor was getting "too close", as is normal response by DW it is to run away and avoid. And then dream up any excuse what so ever to "justify" at least in her own mind her quitting. But in the end, it is outright avoidance.

I have made and continue to make mistakes. And I admit that. Throughout counseling I have faced those ugly and difficult behaviors etc and have and continue to work on those areas. She has never as I can tell admitted any fault or has never once apologized for any actions or taken any ownership of faults etc. I have owned my faults and asked for forgiveness and she has never accepted my apologies or granted me forgiveness of any significance.

This is a reoccurring theme for my wife. In that whenever anyone, past friends etc begin to get close at all, she backs away and somehow finds an excuse to cut ties. Most of the time the relationship just sort of fades away. Without any fanfare etc. the other person can't get close or my wife open up to them so the friendships can only go so deep. And they either remain on this low plane, or they wither and fade away.

She lets no one in and she does not let herself out. When people start to approach this level of intimacy all progress stops. I believe this is exactly what happens with her counselor. Her counselor was getting too close and it just got too uncomfortable for DW. So she made and looked for convenient excuse to "justify" the stopping of counseling.

I am about at my wits end.

Right now I feel like I am in Prison. In solatary confinement. And someone like the prison warden gets to dictate when I'm allowed congugal visits once or twice a week, from A woman who provides sex who would really rather be somewhere else doing something else. And then Some asking me to be content with this. Well I'm not content. No amount of new curtains or a new pillow will change the fact that your still in a prison cell. It can be the best prison and nicest appointments in the world. But you still know you are not free. Your connection to intimacy is a person someone else decides when she comes to visit and you better be happy with what she gives or doesn't give because that's just the way it is.

Can this situation change? Yes it is possible. But I'm not seeing a lot of hope when she quit counseling. She is without a doubt making an effort to initiate sex. Nbut she is trying to cure the disease with a band aid. She it staying to solve the symptom and doing it for me without going to the root cause. It is like taking a pain killer to stop the pain of a broken leg. Sure the pain may go away, but the bone is still broken. And in the end it is effort not well spent. She is avoiding counseling I believe in favor of trying to placate me with sex. It's nice to temporarily be soothed with sex, but ultimately not very effective since the root cause remains hidden.

Info not believe I can leave the marriage bed. As it will almost assuredly backfire. As she is putting forth all her effort to initiate sex.m and if I leave the bed now, it will only confirm in her mind that nothing she does is ever good enough and she will completely give up. The fact of the matter is that it is not enough. But if I tell her that she will be crushed. And I cannot do that to her.

I have to find some other way to motivate her to want to grow and heal herself FOR HERSELF. Right now she doesn't seem to want to fight for herself. She is like a drug addict or alcoholic who is still in denial that they have a problem. Until they themselves realize the have a problem, they will never overcome it.n I don't believe my wife is ready to face whatever the core issue is that she doesn't want to face. I have my suspicions what it may be. But since she has not revealed this secret, I can't be sure. I also can t help her either. So I'm caught in between a rock and a hard place.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Hiswifeagain » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:58 pm

Sounds like your dw never learned to bond properly. She might recognize her struggle in Dr. Cloud's book "Changes that Heal". She might be willing to look at it because it's not her fault she didn't learn how to bond in childhood. He gives hope because he shows you that you can learn how as an adult. It's all biblically based. Very good stuff in that book.


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Re: Sick and tired

Postby doug-h » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:59 pm

Unfulfilled,

I am going to saynsome things that may be unpopular, may be hard to bear hearing, and quite honestly, may well be way out in left field. All I have to go on is your words.


First, I love you, Brother. I hurt for you every time I read one of your posts. Your pain speaks quite clearly.

That said, I wonder how much of your pain is self inflicted. When I say that, I am not trying to be mean spirited, but I do want to be honest. There is nothing wrong with your hopes and expectations, but when you let them steal so much from you, then I have to say, that from where I am sitting, your wife is not the only problem in your relationship.

You describe improvements in your sex life, and they may well be modest, but instead of celebrating them, you minimize them. You talk about your wife pushing away from people, some people are like that. I am like that, or I have been. I am slowly growing out of it. You are probably right, that there is some incident, some past trauma that molds her that way. I am starting to see those things in myself. Nothing I ever did seemed enough, and I did some fairly remarkable things. I never had a real friend, never knew what that meant.

I can tell you that it isn't a small thing to overcome, and probably impossible if you don't recognize it. I can also tell you that anyone pushing to hard towards me, would have resulted in me retreating away. I think that may be at play in what you describe. You are pushing, and she senses it.
What you describe as intimacy, probably terrifies her, physically, emotionally, spiritually. You say she gets so close with counselors, and then is afraid to go farther, and then backs away. I think it applies in your marriage.

On the other hand, you describe one area where instead of retreating, she moved closer(physical).

I don't know what dynamics are at play in your home. I don't know how much your wife senses, but I imagine she senses a lot, and what she senses does in fact tell her, that it is never going to be enough. You are quite likely responsible for at least some of that angst for her.

I can't tell you what led me to change, but I can describe the events that led to it. A very limited few reached out to me, let me know they cared, and then just sat back. They didn't try to fix me, they never even hinted that there was anything to be fixed. They just tossed out a rope. When I put my hands on it, They just kept enough tension on it that I didn't fight it. They anchored me so I was no longer drifting, but they did not try to tow me to port.

I am going to recommend that course of action with your wife. You need to be an anchor, so the line doesn't snap.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:44 pm

[Moderator note: this discussion was moved from someone else's thread to here.]

I understand completely!

I genuinely want my wife. My wife seems to endure me.m at least where sex is involved.

Your statement that she "wants" me for things her dad or brother could do just as well (or better) than me hits home with me. I have felt that a LOT.

Like you said, my wife was never a refuser in the traditional sense. She would have physical sex. But it always seems reluctant at best. So while she did not refuse me physically, she certainly has refused to give herself, her true self to me. Which as you say hurts as much if not more than refusal of the physical sex.

I married a person, not a physical body. I want to make love to the person who is my wife, not the shell of her body.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Hiswifeagain » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:56 pm

Just curious, how do you know she's not giving you her "true self"?

While I completely understand the desire to be desired, what if that's just not part of who your wives are? If I understand Schnarch's theory correctly it says: If you are looking to a spouse for a sense of worthiness, you have a reflected sense of self and you'll stay dependent on someone else to make you feel okay about yourself.
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:28 am

How do I know she's not sharing her true self? First let me say that things are improving extremely slowly and my wife I think is working on herself. I do see SOME change in her. But it is behond glacially slow.m maybe measured on geologic time scale movement.

How do I know about sex that she doesn't give her full self?

1) When asked to list two positive things about sex she answered that it doesn't happen every night but when t does at least it is over quick.

2) she has told me she hates sex

3) she has told me the orgasm is not worth the effort.

4) she has told me that if she never had sex again it would be No big deal

5) she has told me she has to dissociate and think of other things in order to O

6) when she comes home after work, I'm happy to see her and makes me more relaxed, she looks at me and it seems to show "oh [edit], now I have to deal with him too. Nooks I am more a burden than a place of refuge.

7) she knows my love language is physical touch, yet other than sex will literally goes DAYS without a single touch. Even non sexual touch. And I literally mean not a touch. In some cases not even accidental or incidental touch. No think right now I am at 10 touches outside of sex in 6 weeks!

8 ) Ive known Her for 28 years and married over 26. I know her better than anyone and frankly better than she knows herself.

Maybe it is my problem. But having to force yourself to do something like sex with the person you supposedly love doesn't seem right. It seems natural to WANT and desire to be with the person you love most of the time and certainly sexually. When that attraction is not there, something is wrong. That fact that a spouse can detect that should not be at all surprising to anyone who knows their spouse.

Going to a opera (or a tractor pull) because your spouse likes it when you don't is one thing, but you reluctantly do it for your spouse. Being intimate and especially sex is in my opinion completely different. To hate sex and have to do all sorts of mental force of will contortions it "endure" sex with your spouse; well something is wrong.

To not want to hug or kiss or touch your spouse during the day etc . Well something is wrong. To not miss sex if you never had it again and only due it because you know you should. Well something is wrong. When you say you want to improve and change and then play games on your phone every night but not pick up a book or read blogs etc, well some priority is messed up and the priority clearly isn't me. To quit going to counseling and use the excuse that we can't afford it, but then go to the movies or out to dinner and spend the same amount as a counseling session. Well something just doesn't add up.

So how do I know her heart is not truly into it and truly giving herself. Well actions speak louder than words!

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Hiswifeagain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:24 pm

"True-self" implied she's pretending to be someone she's not. I'd say she's giving you her true-self, which right now isn't that into sex. Why would she hide her true-self if that self were someone that was more pleasing to you? It seems you think you know who she really is and she just won't be herself. One thing that really hurt my marriage was my belief that I knew my husband better than he knew himself. That's a pretty bold statement that may be very damaging to your relationship if you happen to be wrong. I Corinthian's 2:11 and Proverbs 14:10.

She is working on changing to please you. Can you learn to love her true-self even is it's not who you want her to be?
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Unfulfilled » Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:49 pm

I think the fact that I love her and have been married to her for 26 years answers that ^^* question.

Again actions speak louder than words.

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Re: Sick and tired

Postby Hiswifeagain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:11 pm

I wasn't doubting that you love her. What I meant is can you embrace, celebrate, appreciate her as she was created if she never desires you sexually the way you want her to?
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Passion vs Polite Obligation

Postby Unfulfilled » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:36 am

Hiswifeagain wrote:can you embrace, celebrate, appreciate her as she was created if she never desires you sexually the way you want her to?


I am not sure I will ever be happy with the way it is. Reluctantly accepting I suppose is about as good as it will get I guess.

You are asking for me to be happy never feeling like I'm loved. Could you accept and embrace your husband if you never felt loved/cherished?


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