Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

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Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:45 am

My Dw began her perimenopause issues when she was 25. Our healthcare at the time was via the military, they said that she had low E, but due to her youth they could not diagnose perimenopause.

Night sweats, hot flashes, mood swings, vaginal dryness, vulvodynia symptoms, her mense cycles have never been clockwork sometimes she goes 2 or 3 months between mense, other times she will mense twice in a month.

She has asked for a hysterectomy many times but was always refused as her symptoms were not severe enough.

Over the passage of 25 years, the lack of E seems to have caused general lack of muscle tone [including cardiac muscle, which has led to a series of heart attacks] weight gain and vaginal atrophy.

Doctors have always refused to give her Estrogen as her family history includes that her mother, aunts and sister all had breast and/or cervical cancers.

We now have civilian doctors [which are much better btw, they all have college degrees], her past three doctors have not had any helpful suggestions for her treatment. And they refuse to give her HRT.

A health food guru has recommended that she take DIM' [Diindolylmethane], so has anyone heard of it?

Tried it?

Thank you.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby Leah » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:49 am

I have not heard of it. Most of the women I know have either used a natural hormone topical preparation or are on regular HRT.

I think there are some people who believe in adding more phytoestrogens to the diet via soy. My chiropractor is not a big fan of this, but some people seem to be helped by it.
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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:53 pm

She has been told [for years] to avoid soy, broccoli and all other sources of 'natural' estrogen; due to her family medical history.

Apparently the older HRT [synthetic estrogens] were red flagged for causing cancers in women known to be susceptible to cancer.

Phyto-Estrogens are apparently also thought to be dangerous for these people.

I was hoping that with the development of the new 'bio-identical' estrogens, we could avoid those risks. But her doctors have expressly forbidden trying 'bio-identical's as well.

Trying DIM is an attempt to circumvent the doctors [since they are not doing anything to help anyway].

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby Leah » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:14 pm

I don't see that there is a solution for your wife. Personally, I think doctors are silly to deny women the benefit of a substance that should be in their bodies anyway. Lack of estrogen is very unhealthy. I would not want to end up in a nursing home because of a broken hip and die of pneumonia, you know?

It's probably not helpful to know your wife is probably as miserable as you are.
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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:54 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:I don't see that there is a solution for your wife.


Same here.

But 25 years of near celibacy is very frustrating for me.



... Personally, I think doctors are silly to deny women the benefit of a substance that should be in their bodies anyway. Lack of estrogen is very unhealthy. I would not want to end up in a nursing home because of a broken hip and die of pneumonia, you know?


As I understand it, for many women their HRT can be sort-of-estrogen and their bodies don't care. But for some family-lines the estrogen needs to be perfect human estrogen or else it kills them. Synthetic estrogens, phyto-estrogens, and pig estrogens, just are not close enough to avoid cervix and breast cancers.

She works in a grocery store, moving product from pallets on a loading dock carrying product into the store stocking displays. A bit of a physical job. About 2 years ago, they lost control of a loaded 1-tonne pallet, it rolled down a ramp and pinned her against a concrete wall. It fractured her hip. The workmen's comp doctor said that if she had been a slim woman or not fit, the impact would have killed her.

It would appear that physical exercise can maintain bone density.



... It's probably not helpful to know your wife is probably as miserable as you are.


She does not like the night sweats / hot flashes. I am not sure if she notices the mood swings.

Her mense cycles being erratic are a minor inconvenience, she wears a pad everyday just in case. Otherwise I dont think that her cycles really effect her life style.

She is very LD, and she has no idea of what she should be miserable about. A long walk holding hands with me once a year, and her 'intimacy cup' is filled to over-flowing. She considers our marriage to be very happy and intimate.

I would not describe her as miserable.

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Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby mamame » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:02 pm

She may not be miserable about the same things you are, but she may still be miserable.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby Leah » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:33 pm

Hey, beekeeper, you might want to check out some of ledgemoor's posts. He has immersed himself in his wife's health issues, and I think you might gain from talking to him.
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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:49 pm

weepingwillow wrote:BK, is her progesterone level ok?


I do not know.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:51 pm

Leah in Mid-South wrote:Hey, beekeeper, you might want to check out some of ledgemoor's posts. He has immersed himself in his wife's health issues, and I think you might gain from talking to him.


It would seem that if I am ever going to experience sex again in this life, I must immerse myself in my Dw's health issues. Although I have done this for 20-years. I have only recently seen a 'victory' where she is willing to try this as a move in my favour.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby Leah » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:28 am

Talk to ledgemoor.
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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby ledgemoor » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:46 am

Hi--

Wow. Sounds all too familiar. I'm so sorry you are going thru this. I'm totally P-O'd at the medical profession now. They want to cure you only as a last resort. You get better, they lose a customer.

Anyway, DW & I are both on DIM. Her gyn/our bHRT doctor "prescribed" it to us. It is my understanding that it is primarily to regulate estrogen absorption, and slows the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Mom210 would be a good one to ask. She advised me that DIM may lower my estrogen level too much and cause loss of morning erections. :-) So I don't know if it would be a good idea for your wife or not. So far so good on the morning hard-ons, btw!

But, DIM is also a great antioxidant, which I suppose is one reason he wants DW to take it (she had a hysterectomy due to endometrial cancer). I'm thinking your DW wouldn't do any permanent harm by trying it for a few months -- who knows? Hormones are as much a black art as science. Testosterone is responsible for vaginal lubrication in women, so it might help by increasing her testosterone, and hopefully won't lower the usable estrogen too much.

I think the mainstream medical profession is in the dark ages when it comes to hormones and cancer. True, too much estrogen accelerates the growth of cancer, especially in the lab. But what about the right amount of estrogen? I couldn't get a straight answer from her oncologist & surgeon. I asked "if you were to remove the ovaries of 1000 healthy women, would they have a lower incidence of cancer?" First he gets [ticked] at me for even suggesting such a thing. I explain that I wasn't suggesting that anyone actually do that -- it was merely a thought experiment to try get an answer to a simple question. I don't think anyone really knows.

Another oncologist that we consulted with (from Emory University) was not as opposed to HRT as DW's oncologist. She felt that the risks from the million woman study were overblown by the press, and that the increased risk is acceptable. The Million Woman study was with non-human hormones, BTW. There are no studies that I am aware of that show that bioidenticl hormones increase cancer incidence, and there is one small but valid study that shows that it lowers risk.

There are things that mainstream medicine uses to help estrogen deficiency. Estrace is a specially-prepared synthetic human estrogen that is inserted into the vagina to help dryness and atrophy, without entering the bloodstream. DW's vagina was deteriorating so badly that this yucky goo was coming out of it. The Estrace worked almost immediately. It would probably help with your wife's soreness.

Her oncologist, who I mentioned is opposed to HRT, "prescribed" an herb called "black kohosh". It apparently has good results in treating symptoms of low estrogen. The oncologist believes that it is not estrogen. The bHRT doctor thinks it is an estrogen, so no one really knows. DW quit taking it when she started bHRT. Anyway, your DW could try it.

Progesterone is very important for menstrual and sexual health. It PREVENTS cancer. You can buy progesterone cream OTC. Read some of John Lee's books. He is THE Progesterone and breast cancer guru in my opinion.

DW is Oriental, and thrives on soy products. She tried not eating them for a while, but it didn't help her periods -- if anything they got worse. Oriental women have a low incidence of breast and uterince cancer. (Ever feel like the deck is stacked against you?)

But what I would really recommend is finding a good doctor specializing in bHRT, and get a comprehensive blood analysis. Not just sex hormones, but thyroid, cortisol, vitimin D and B .... DW had about 25 blood tests. She was low on D and B, as well as some other stuff. Even if your wire decides not to get HRT, anything that can be done to improve her general health will help with her hormonal symptoms, and lower cancer risk. And she does exercise, right? Very important.

Look up "compounding pharmacies" in the phone book and ask for referrals to doctors. If you don't mind traveling to God's country, PM me and I can tell you who we use.

I wouldn't worry too much about a family history of cervical cancer -- it is sexually transmitted. Virusus can apparently be domant in your body for 20 years or so, then unexpectedly screw you. I don't know about you guys sexual history, but I'm guessing you're low risk.

You want to get this fixed. DW's cancer was probably caused by having screwey periods all her life (this is per a "regular" doctor, not our HRT guy). She DOESN'T want a hysterectomy. Hysterectomies are evil.

Anyway, we decided that DW should take bHRT. Going on two years now and no reoccurence. Hopefully she will croak off sometime after her 100th birthday and we'll know we made the righ decision. At any rate, we have had some quality time together, which we would not have had without HRT.

Praying.
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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby Paul B » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:10 pm

From what I am seeing, we don't know how it works, or exactly what it does. A WebMD article says "Diindolylmethane might act like estrogen in the body, but there is evidence that under certain circumstances it might also block estrogen effects." It is being investigated as a possible treatment for both cancer and viral infections.

I would say it's rolling the dice. If she does use it, PLEASE be sure her doctor(s) know. Even if they don't like it, they need to know she is taking it.
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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby mom210 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:33 pm

sometimes it is not estrogen that a peri or post menopausal women needs but progesterone.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:12 pm

ledgemoor wrote:Hi--

Wow. Sounds all too familiar. I'm so sorry you are going thru this. I'm totally P-O'd at the medical profession now. They want to cure you only as a last resort. You get better, they lose a customer.


Good point.



... Anyway, DW & I are both on DIM. Her gyn/our bHRT doctor "prescribed" it to us. It is my understanding that it is primarily to regulate estrogen absorption, and slows the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Mom210 would be a good one to ask. She advised me that DIM may lower my estrogen level too much and cause loss of morning erections. :-) So I don't know if it would be a good idea for your wife or not. So far so good on the morning hard-ons, btw!

But, DIM is also a great antioxidant, which I suppose is one reason he wants DW to take it (she had a hysterectomy due to endometrial cancer). I'm thinking your DW wouldn't do any permanent harm by trying it for a few months -- who knows? Hormones are as much a black art as science. Testosterone is responsible for vaginal lubrication in women, so it might help by increasing her testosterone, and hopefully won't lower the usable estrogen too much.


We can only hope.



... I think the mainstream medical profession is in the dark ages when it comes to hormones and cancer. True, too much estrogen accelerates the growth of cancer, especially in the lab. But what about the right amount of estrogen? I couldn't get a straight answer from her oncologist & surgeon. I asked "if you were to remove the ovaries of 1000 healthy women, would they have a lower incidence of cancer?" First he gets [ticked] at me for even suggesting such a thing. I explain that I wasn't suggesting that anyone actually do that -- it was merely a thought experiment to try get an answer to a simple question. I don't think anyone really knows.


Doctors insist that only they can know anything about health; yet it seems clear that they know very little.



... Another oncologist that we consulted with (from Emory University) was not as opposed to HRT as DW's oncologist. She felt that the risks from the million woman study were overblown by the press, and that the increased risk is acceptable. The Million Woman study was with non-human hormones, BTW. There are no studies that I am aware of that show that bioidenticl hormones increase cancer incidence, and there is one small but valid study that shows that it lowers risk.


I am aware of bio-identicals. However my Dw is very much afraid of taking estrogen, and for many years her doctors have only encouraged this fear.

Her current doctor is likewise against Dw taking estrogen in any form.



... There are things that mainstream medicine uses to help estrogen deficiency. Estrace is a specially-prepared synthetic human estrogen that is inserted into the vagina to help dryness and atrophy, without entering the bloodstream. DW's vagina was deteriorating so badly that this yucky goo was coming out of it. The Estrace worked almost immediately. It would probably help with your wife's soreness.


I have read about that, and I have suggested it to my Dw.

I have no idea if there is any 'goo' oozing, as I have not seen that region of my Dw's body for years.



... Her oncologist, who I mentioned is opposed to HRT, "prescribed" an herb called "black kohosh". It apparently has good results in treating symptoms of low estrogen. The oncologist believes that it is not estrogen. The bHRT doctor thinks it is an estrogen, so no one really knows. DW quit taking it when she started bHRT. Anyway, your DW could try it.


We had a long talk about our situation, the first in many years that did not turn into a screaming match. In it she suggested that she would go to a health food outlet where she likes one of their gurus for advice.

I assumed that she would either be given Black Cohosh [Actaea racemosa] or else soy.

I have came across references to Black Cohosh many times in the past, and I have attended a few workshops where it was recommended.

I was surprised when my Dw came home with DIM instead, as I had not heard of it.



... Progesterone is very important for menstrual and sexual health. It PREVENTS cancer. You can buy progesterone cream OTC. Read some of John Lee's books. He is THE Progesterone and breast cancer guru in my opinion.


Yes, I will read about it some more. Thank you.



... DW is Oriental, and thrives on soy products. She tried not eating them for a while, but it didn't help her periods -- if anything they got worse. Oriental women have a low incidence of breast and uterince cancer. (Ever feel like the deck is stacked against you?)

But what I would really recommend is finding a good doctor specializing in bHRT, and get a comprehensive blood analysis. Not just sex hormones, but thyroid, cortisol, vitimin D and B .... DW had about 25 blood tests. She was low on D and B, as well as some other stuff. Even if your wire decides not to get HRT, anything that can be done to improve her general health will help with her hormonal symptoms, and lower cancer risk. And she does exercise, right? Very important.


My Dw has asked for HRT. Her doctors refuse to give it to her.

My wife has had a series of heart attacks. Once you begin having heart attacks they lower the 'target' levels for your B.P. and Cholesterol. Her B.P. and Cholesterol levels are fine for anyone else. So they had her on two B.P. meds, two cholesterol meds, and two heart meds.

After a year of that, and another heart attack, she insisted that she did not want to be on so many meds. She gave her doctors a choice of one med to keep her on. They choose one of the heart meds.

At this point, her doctors are only going to focus on the cardiac side and will still refuse to give her HRT.

We are pretty sure that only if she has a hysterectomy will she be able to convince a doctor to give her estrogen.



... Look up "compounding pharmacies" in the phone book and ask for referrals to doctors. If you don't mind traveling to God's country, PM me and I can tell you who we use.

I wouldn't worry too much about a family history of cervical cancer -- it is sexually transmitted. Virusus can apparently be domant in your body for 20 years or so, then unexpectedly screw you. I don't know about you guys sexual history, but I'm guessing you're low risk.

You want to get this fixed. DW's cancer was probably caused by having screwey periods all her life (this is per a "regular" doctor, not our HRT guy). She DOESN'T want a hysterectomy. Hysterectomies are evil.

Anyway, we decided that DW should take bHRT. Going on two years now and no reoccurence. Hopefully she will croak off sometime after her 100th birthday and we'll know we made the righ decision. At any rate, we have had some quality time together, which we would not have had without HRT.

Praying.


I am glad to hear that HRT is working out so well for you.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:14 pm

Paul B wrote: ... I would say it's rolling the dice. If she does use it, PLEASE be sure her doctor(s) know. Even if they don't like it, they need to know she is taking it.


I will ask her to tell her doctor.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby Two Hearts » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:42 pm

ledgemoor wrote:Progesterone is very important for menstrual and sexual health. It PREVENTS cancer. You can buy progesterone cream OTC. Read some of John Lee's books. He is THE Progesterone and breast cancer guru in my opinion.

Beekeeper,
I also give thumbs up to Dr. Lee's books. Following his recommendations spared me from having a hysterectomy back in my thirties.
beekeeper wrote:We had a long talk about our situation, the first in many years that did not turn into a screaming match.

This has been my prayer for you. I'm glad to read that healthy communication took place. May God bless you with the wisdom to know what direction to go and the strength to persevere.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby mom210 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:37 pm

You can get progesterone cream from GNC.. The one I use is only $15..

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:47 pm

Two Hearts wrote:
ledgemoor wrote:Progesterone is very important for menstrual and sexual health. It PREVENTS cancer. You can buy progesterone cream OTC. Read some of John Lee's books. He is THE Progesterone and breast cancer guru in my opinion.

Beekeeper,
I also give thumbs up to Dr. Lee's books. Following his recommendations spared me from having a hysterectomy back in my thirties.
beekeeper wrote:We had a long talk about our situation, the first in many years that did not turn into a screaming match.

This has been my prayer for you. I'm glad to read that healthy communication took place. May God bless you with the wisdom to know what direction to go and the strength to persevere.


Thank you.

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:50 pm

weepingwillow wrote:
mom210 wrote:sometimes it is not estrogen that a peri or post menopausal women needs but progesterone.


^ This.

Definitely look into progesterone. Estrogen may not necessarily be the problem and using it when it is not needed can be harmful.

I think I've see you mention in other threads that your wife is quite overweight (please forgive me if I'm wrong!). Excess weight increases concentration of estrogen.


Yes, thank you.

She is over weight. Though she has a very physical job [loading dock with pallets of product that must be carried either onto a shelf or out into the store where product is placed into displays.]

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Re: Has anyone tried 'DIM' [Diindolylmethane] ?

Postby beekeeper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:51 pm

mom210 wrote:You can get progesterone cream from GNC.. The one I use is only $15..


Thank you.

How do you dose it?


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