Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Aging brings changes - some good, some not so much.
pop fish
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Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby pop fish » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:51 pm

Hello to all you older folks out there. I am writing to ask for your input and experience in addressing an issue and discussions I am having with my DW.

First, the background. We will celebrate 49 years together this summer and we are both now over 70. After many years of a low sex marriage, we are finally on the path to a better marriage thanks to the work and videos by Mark Gungor and Kevin Leman. However, while I have been reading and studying the bible and many different authors to address various issues in our marriage including my years of anger over gate keeping and refusal, I can not seem to get DW to read much more than an occasional article that I send her a link for.

We are discussing now what God intended for married couples according to the bible. She was raised in puritanical family setting and God and sex should never be discussed together. We have begun daily payers together and recently I asked God's blessing on us as we made plans for sex during an upcoming time together. This whole thought really turned her off and things did not go so well. Most times when I bring up passages of the bible that describe what God intended for marriage, I get the immediate "yes but" line. Song of Songs - "Yes but" Solomon had 400 concubines and was not very god like in some of his activities. In 1st Corinthians, the "yes but" is that in those days having many children was critical to keep a family going. The examples can go on and on. It is nearly always a "yes but" when I try to show what I believe God intended for us.

BTW, DW is very involved in church activities and does much ministry on prayer teams and elderly visitation, etc.

I am wondering if any older folks out there have run into this and what, if anything, I can or should do about this. Considering that we don't have many years left, it is worth addressing our should I just accept the changes that have occurred in the last year and move on. BTW, Our sex life satisfaction and frequency has increased considerably in the last year as DW has realized the hurt she has imposed on me. I am changed too as I try to be continuously generous. Our relationship is many orders of magnitude better than it was a year ago.

Thanks for your input.

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txtwindad
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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby txtwindad » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:41 pm

I'm not sure what being older has to do with this. You have the same problem 70-80% of the posters on TMB have.
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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby Redsbuddy1972 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:38 am

And good on ya for being ever hopeful. I sincerely hope I'm not still suffering 25 yrs from now.

Shoving bible versus down her throat clearly isnt working, so give it up and take a new tack. Sounds like maybe there's finally some willingness on her part to change, don't ruin it by being stubborn about the method. Ask her what would help and run with it.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby pop fish » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:20 am

Thanks for the comments and suggestion.

The only thing that seems to be in DW's learning methodology is video tapes. Looking around for a video series that talks about God's plan for married sex. I have found one hour long presentation by Kevin Thomson that I will try to use.

I also discovered today a posting on www.managingyourblessings.com that addresses the topic of God's view of married sex and have forwarded the link to DW. She will eventually read this and we can hopefully discuss it again.

Trying to "unlearn" incorrect teaching after years of ingrained behavior takes time and patience. I pray daily for patience as that is not my normal operating mode.

Please keep the suggestions coming. Always open to new ideas.

BTW, did not mention in my first post that DW and I have known each other since 1st grade. We went through school together and did not start dating until after High School. Lots of history together.

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seeking perspective
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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby seeking perspective » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:10 am

Change is possible--even after a couple decades. For a long time, I did not respond well when my husband would send me articles and links. When he pointed out bible verses to show what sexual intimacy should be like in marriage, I was both hurt and angry. (I've described some of that reaction here. I refused to discuss the articles with my husband and told him I didn't read them--but I did read them, and the words stayed in my heart even though I didn't have an idea what to do if I were to change.

None of my husband's efforts led to immediate change. However, they did help to soften my heart over time so that when I was ready to change, I was motivated to push through and do so.

If your wife learns well through video, perhaps she could also do well with podcasts. There is a relatively new series of podcasts at delightyourmarriage.com that features interviews with Christian marriage writers.
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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby ledgemoor » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:44 pm

Hi Pop Fish, welcome to TMB.

Fore sure, be thankful for the positive changes that have transpired so far, but never give up. No one is too old or has been married so long that God no longer desires growth from us. Congratulations on 50 years BTW. That's fantastic.

Her "yes but" objections to the scripture you reference is pretty easy to counter. Solomon had an endless supply of different women to sleep with, yet chose to write about his love for one woman. He could have written about the joys of having multiple women. Perhaps he actually did. However, Song of Solomon is his best song ("Song of Songs") out of the 1005 that he wrote. If he did write other songs about multiple women, they were not his best, and no one saw fit to preserve them. BTW, we have to wonder if the relationship in SOS was fictional. It is, after all, a song. Bottom line, Solomon had 400 women, but that isn't what he viewed as ideal. He longed for the love of one woman.

In 1 Cor 7, couples with a post-menopausal or nursing wife were not excused from marriage bed responsibilities, so it would be hard to argue that reproduction had anything to do with it.

Another scripture is (Solomon again) Proverbs 5 "Delight in the wife of your youth. Let her nipples satisfy you always".

My favorite is Gen 2, where God defines marriage. As you know, Adam was naming all those animals, and was getting lonely because there were no mate for him. Then God says "it is not good for man(kind) to be alone." We leave our parents, and become one flesh with our spouse. Nothing about reproduction here.

Anyway, as RedsBuddy says, what the Bible says and means probably isn't going to change her mind, but FWIW in case it comes up again.

If the videos are working, go that route. My wife isn't big on reading marriage and sex stuff, but will watch marriage videos together with me when I find them. Fortunately she has always been pretty open to discussing sex. Her mother is the biggest prude in the world, so I'm thankful for her willingness to talk about it.

We have been praying before and lately during sex. It started out just asking God to help our bodies both work they way they are supposed to and help her have a good orgasm, which she loves but sometimes has a hard time getting to. We have progressed to praying for it to bring us closer together and help us love each other more.

What behavioral changes are you hoping for in her?
Last edited by ledgemoor on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby StrawberryBlonde » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:52 pm

Congratulations on sticking together for so many years. I, too, resisted sex for many years, and the Lord used Sheila Gregoire to begin to change my heart. She does have some videos on YouTube; with the right techie stuff (not sure how, but I'm sure someone here can tell you) you can watch these together on your TV. A lot of my resistance was rooted in fear. Perhaps your wife also is feeling insecure about herself, or maybe she sees sex and love as two totally separate things (as I also did), or any number of other things. I came to the point where I was through with fear right about the same time I realized how I had been hurting my husband. Thankfully he had purposed in his heart long ago never to be bitter against me. SeekingPerspective has a wonderful blog (accessed by the icon on her profile) that may help your wife, if you can get her there, but you could get some valuable insight there, too.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby IM_a_Farmwife » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:09 pm

Have you noticed how sweet you are to your DW, especially since the positive change within the last year?

My DH has never pointed to scriptures and said "see" but then, I am a sex positive wife. He is a living example of how one should treat a spouse. Are you allowing God to change the things in you, that need changing? Are you willing to forgive her? I know first hand that complete forgiveness is a hard thing for the flesh to do. I'm still working on the forgiveness stuff with a different scenario.

Congrats on your length of marriage! I was 5 when you got married! I really hope you will offer your experience on here. I look forward to that.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby pop fish » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:21 am

Thanks once again to all who have responded to my request for new ideas. I am blessed to have you and TMB to come to with questions and for support. I have a few comments to add to individual folks.

To txtwindad: i agree that 70-80% of posters have the same or similar issues that I have. I was looking for input from older folks who have faced these issues only after decades of fighting / enduring these issues. I think someone addressing these issues after only a few years or one or two decades has a different battle than my case that has not been addressed for nearly 5 decades. The habits and responses have been so ingrained over that time that recovery seems so much more difficult. It's hard not to give up and even harder to change myself as I confront all the bad and ugly things I have done to my DW. I praise God for his ability to forgive.

To seeking perspective: I read your blog almost daily and have forwarded several article to DW. You perspective has been most helpful and I thank you from my deepest heart for your efforts. Thank you for taking time to respond to my post. I know you have more on your plate that you can say grace over. I will look over the podcasts on delightyourmarriage.com. I wish you could sit with DW for coffee and a heart-to heart talk someday. I feel as though she would benefit by having other ladies she could talk honestly with about very private issues. DW has lots of friends but no intimate female confidants.

To ledgemoor: Thanks very much for the come back comments to the "yes,but" from DW. I am not a bible scholar and have only recently been going back to church on a regular basis. I was a CE christian for decades as I was turned off by organized religion as a young adult. I still have issues with organized religion but consider myself a Godly man and am managing to look past things I object to at church. I am trying to live God's rules on a husband being the spiritual head of the home.

To KJBLady: Thanks for pointing too Sheila. I will look that up on You Tube to see what I can find.

To IM_a_Farmwife: I do plan to stick around and lurk on TMB and have been for about a year now. I have responded to a few posts but try to stay out of most things unless I have specific experience to relate. For example, I am a long term Type 1 diabetic and have had ED issues for years so I can help guys with those issues.

Finally to all: I again thank you for your help and ideas. I will be talking with DW in some detail about her possible fear of facing God and her truth. I tend to agree that this is a fear issue as she is saying that we can handle our issues ourselves and resists my thoughts of finding a good christian counselor. My goal in all this is to have DW understand God's plans for marriage and to be able to flange up the idea that God and sex are not mutually exclusive but, in fact, one and the same thing. I want a sex positive wife and not one who goes through the motions just because this is a perceived responsibility.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby Hiswifeagain » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:44 am

I ran across this video course yesterday in reading a marriage blog by one of the developers. It's $97.00 dollars, but may be worth the money if it gets her at least seeing some women that have struggle the same way she has.

Someone already mentioned the podcasts by Delightyourmarriage.com, but there is also Java with Juli that has many podcasts on women's issues related to intimacy of all kinds. I listen on Podcast Republic on my smart phone, but it's available through the computer too. Have her check out the archives. This one is called God's Opinion About Sex. She may really relate to Linda Dillow as she's a bit older than some of the young bloggers and podcasters.
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby pop fish » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:06 pm

Thanks for the links hiswifeagain. I have checked them out and will make use of these. I hope to ask DW sit with me to listen Java with Juli. That one seems to be spot on. There will be a slight delay in all these actions as we are about to go away for two weeks with kids and grandchildren. Amazing how fast time flies when you get older.

BTW, I have given a copy of Linda's book "What is it like to be married to me" to DW but it just collects dust on the coffee table. I think the fear issue has DW locked up and in a bind. I'll table all this until after vacation as I don't want to spoil our family time.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby jokerman » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:02 pm

I think it's tempting to place a super-logical blog post, podcast, book, article, DVD or website in front of someone and hope they'll be persuaded to change their mind. But if their original stance was never based on logic and information, you can't really use information to move them to another stance. You've already mentioned that one resource is collecting dust. . . . So I guess I'm wondering if you have a Plan B in mind, something more personal and from the heart and which puts the issue on the table in such a way that it becomes uncomfortable not to confront it.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby Hiswifeagain » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:23 pm

pop fish wrote:BTW, I have given a copy of Linda's book "What is it like to be married to me" to DW but it just collects dust on the coffee table. I think the fear issue has DW locked up and in a bind. I'll table all this until after vacation as I don't want to spoil our family time.

I'd say you're lucky it's just gathering dust. She could have thrown it at you. I've read that book and I'm telling you that has got to be one of the worst books ever for a husband to give his wife. Unless of course it's his goal to create defensiveness and hurt feelings. The title might as well be "You Are A Terrible Wife and Here's Why".

That's a great book for a female friend to give after she's read it. Or for a woman to buy herself when she's been convicted to work on herself.

I'm not trying to scold you. :wink: I just want you to understand why it's just gathering dust. Most men don't their wives to give them a book about how they're failing as a husband. You want that one from a friend, right?

@Jokerman

I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to disagree. It may take longer to change beliefs that aren't formed in logic and reason, but I've seen it happen and it's not exactly rare. Women aren't completely illogical, they often are just more feeling based. If she can relate on a relationship level with what's being presented it will go a long way towards winning her heart.
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby pop fish » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Thanks jokerman. I'll try that again. A few years ago, I sent DW a two page letter that laid out my hurt and apologized for the issues I had caused. In that letter, I suggested some things that we needed to do and address. I know DW read the letter but she never even responded to me my heart felt letter. This lack of reaction only made me hurt more. However, in light of our new recent openness, I'll try that again. I'll find the old letter and see if I can add to it with new information.

Hiswifeagain: Thanks for the insight on Linda's book. I have not read it myself only the reviews. I thought since Linda is about the same age as we are, DW could relate more to her writing. May not be the best approach as you have pointed out so thanks for the comment. DW often says that much of what I send her is for much younger men and women then we are so those articles turn her off and yield the "yes, but" response. Over the years we have both developed various bodily changes that make some things difficult or impossible in TMB. That is one reason why I started my thread on the Senior Sex forum.

I think to both jokerman and hiswifeagain comments that I need to be more patient and just let things take their course for awhile. Our long time together will not change over night. I am just very anxious as I feel there are very few years left for us to get it right with each other and with God. I pray daily for patience, guidance, an open heart and an open mind.

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby Hiswifeagain » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:51 pm

I just reread my post and it seems way more harsh then I intended. It was supposed to be sort of humorous, but it fell flat. :oops: I hope I didn't offend you too badly.
I understand the sense of urgency. I'm turning 50 next year and my dh almost 54 and I feel the sense of urgency.

I really hope she connects with that Java with Juli program. :)
You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Isaiah 26:3

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Re: Need new ideas to counter old thoughts

Postby jokerman » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:51 pm

I didn't mean to say that women are by nature illogical; I'm saying that most of us who have bad habits or false beliefs are illogical. I did not change my diet until my doctor told me I'm pre-diabetic; it was the face-to-face confrontation with someone I respect that turned me around. My consumption of sugar and carbs was emotional and comforting but there was no way to defend those choices, and when someone read me the "change-or-face-bad-consequences" speech I finally turned around, sought out good foods and lost weight and turned my numbers around.

The sexually cautious person is opting for comfort, predictability, and safety, at the expense of novelty and expressiveness. In other words, the problems are deep-seated. Urging someone to read chapter 3 of some great new book in the belief that that will undo a 30-year aversion to oral sex is placing a lot of faith in words on a page. And they may interpret the book as saying "You Are a Terrible Wife and Here's Why." You need to have a more direct and personal way of pointing out that their desire for safety is choking off true intimacy; that's an uncomfortable truth that forces some self-examination on their part.


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