Pull out method for birth control

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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:49 pm

George and Ledgemore... thanks :) this is good info

MrsBouman wrote:Just a note (kind of a downer considering your actual question) that being *very* safe with FAM actually means nothing unprotected starting from day 1 'til after ovulation. Most women are *probably* safe through a period. But you *can* ovulate early and the only way to completely guarantee you're safe is to use a barrier or avoid intercourse from cycle day 1 to three days past ovulation. Sorry, I don't remember exactly my source for reading this... It was either at fertility friend's website or TCOYF's website. It obviously depends on your own confidence in your cycle regularity as well.

As far as your actual question, we've never used withdrawal (too insecure about that for me), but have you tried the lamb skin condoms? They've never had enough decrease in sensation to cause problems for us. We generally use the aforementioned wait until he's close and then put the condom on method.


Yeah... we start protecting around CD 6, based on the "first 5 day rule that I read about in TCOYF... I've been charting for maybe a year before we got married so like a year and a half, and I have never ever ovulated before day 11 and that only happened once (it used to be clockwork day 13, but lately with craziness in my life it's been a bit variable, more like day 12-16ish recently), so given all this it seems very safe given that I read sperm only live 5 days max... I suppose if we were being "textbook" according to TCOYF rules, "very very safe" would be the "first 3 day rule", but first 5 still seems pretty safe. Especially because i have a potential mild fertility issue, but we really don't know if it will be an issue since we've never tried... as some people with it either have no issues or issues more with preterm labor than conception. so we aren't ready to risk esp. a potential high risk pregnancy.. we've had quite enough changes in our lives the last year and i really couldn't even imagine parenting right now! i feel like i'm barely a grown up... although if i did randomly ovulate early and we got pregnant, we would ultimately consider it an amazing gift at just quite an inopportune time. we long for it in a few years...

i'm not sure if we've used lamb skin... i think we've tried several different assortment packs, none of which have been great, but some better than others...
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby George B. » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:55 pm

FoxluvsBunny wrote:George and Ledgemore... thanks :) this is good info

i'm not sure if we've used lamb skin... i think we've tried several different assortment packs, none of which have been great, but some better than others...


you're welcome. Hope it helps.

I'm pretty sure you'd know if you've used lambskin. They're really different from other condoms. They aren't at all stretchy, they have a unique odor that some people don't like, and they aren't fully standard in sizes because they're made from natural tissue.

There are other "thin" condoms out there that also work well for transmitting body heat. You guys should pay attention to which ones work the best for you and stick to those. That's why variety packs are good. We got some of those early on when we were first using condoms and they really helped us figure out what kind worked best for us.
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby tentsofpurple » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:09 am

Dh and I used the pull out method (combined with a computer called the Lady Comp which monitors fertile times using basal body temperature) for 4 years successfully. After that we were ttc. We didn't use condoms he just completely pulled out and O'd outside of me on fertile times (red light days on the lady comp) and o'd inside me on non fertile days (green light days on the lady comp). From my understanding there is not sperm in pre ejaculate as long as the man urinates after orgasm and flushes things out before having sex again. It did require some self disciple and awareness on dh's part but it worked well for us and as soon as my period returns (I'm currently nursing a baby and have not gotten it back yet) we will probably be using it again.

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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby George B. » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:00 am

yep, that's pretty much what we did (except we used condoms for finishing) and I second the whole sperm not being in prejaculate thing. That' was our experience and what we concluded from research, too.
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:07 pm

Awesome... good to know... we'll see if we feel comfortable trying this. We use caution because Fox's brother and sister in law used pull out method and got pregnant with our extremely adorable nephew like a month after they got married. Not sure if they did it wrong or what. She thinks they got pregnant at the end of her period (when they were not using this method as they thought you couldn't get pregnant at that time), but they didn't chart or anything. Given the unlikeliness of that knowing fertility awareness well, I always assumed that they just got pregnant from the pull out method (since it was ineffective) and were confused as to when it happened. Maybe they didn't pull out properly since they were new to it. Regardless, it sounds like it's worked for many quite effectively :).
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby Medic » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:54 pm

Reviving again slightly.... :oops:

Don't mean to rain on the parade here, but from what I have heard (from medical professionals) is that the pull out method does not work for birth control, as pre ejaculate does have sperm. One of my Biology prof's (with an extensive background in hospital work) was kind of enough to really get into birth control (what works and doesn't). She said it doesn't work (and was kind enough to offer BC advice to anyone who wanted it). I have had many an interesting conversation about such topics in her office. :mrgreen: I also heard this from the OBGYN (30+ years) I worked with at my last job.

Obviously knowing when you are fertile is good and very helpful. Of course both of these people recommend some sort of BC instead.

One thing that was really cool is both of these women besides have expert medical knowledge are also Christians (who are pro-life). Actually to my surprise most options out there are not abortive contrary to the many misconceptions I had previously held. Had some very fun times brain picking with them.

In all I would not trust the "Pull out Method" though and would advise something a little more substantial.

I think more importantly is the fact of "If thine Lord, in all of His majesty, declareth that ye shall be with child... Thine shall laden with child." :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: (thinking of all the stories of people who get their tubes tied and vasectomy and still happen to have a child) :shock:

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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:16 pm

Hmm... i will preface this by saying we made fun of this method before we were married... but now it's our method. i have read studies and know of people who use it successfully for years. I know that you have to follow certain protocol for it to be effective, for instance the man must urinate before hand, and not go back in after finishing. I have read studies stating that it's pretty effective. There are mixed things. We choose to use this method during my fertile time and have since i responded to this post. I got fitted for diaphragm, but they are hard to find in the US, so we haven't gotten around to getting it yet. I feel comfortable with the method, even though we don't follow all the fertility awareness rules (we give ourselves a few more days than we are supposed to cause, hey we like to enjoy our sex, thank you!, but we pull out about 6-7 days before and up to the day i actually ovulate... so day 13-14ish is common for me to ovulate on, so we start pulling out around day 7 or 8 (guess we've been a bit looser, and added 2 days to the first 5 day rule sometimes, if we really need another day or 2 of awesomeness :oops:)... i'd be embarrassed to admit this to most people who might roll eyes at us saying we weren't being wise, but i really feel it's safe and don't worry about unexpected pregnancy, except once when we didn't pull out till day 10 by mistake). On paper, probably doesn't sound like a great method, but knowing what we know about fertility awareness and lots of details about my own cycles, and hearing good stories about successful use of withdrawal, we feel good about it and don't worry. If we did get pregnant, we'd be unprepared, but happy, and i feel it's at least 80 or 90% effective, and since i'm likely not that fertile anyway, i don't worry. I know of women who never want kids, and use this method, and it's worked for a long time. I will say tho, that my (adorable) nephew was conceived using this method, but maybe they did it wrong (since he was pretty much a honeymoon babe)... blessings!
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby Medic » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:45 pm

The urination would make sense. Urine is acidic (as is a vagina) and sperm is very basic (to survive the fluid of the vagina). That being said according to the Mayo (an incredibly reliable source IMO) roughly 28% of women will get pregnant in one year of using this method vs normally a woman will get pregnant in 3 months of having unprotected sex. So a little less than 1 in 3. So helpful if it is timed carefully perhaps. That being said it is free and doesn't have any associated medical risks.

I know for my wife and I having a calendar would by near impossible as her cycle is more akin to freestyle jazz than anything else. :? :shock:
Fingers crossed for kids to play jazz with :mrgreen:
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:33 pm

Medic wrote: That being said according to the Mayo (an incredibly reliable source IMO) roughly 28% of women will get pregnant in one year of using this method vs normally a woman will get pregnant in 3 months of having unprotected sex.


hmmm... i wonder if those are the people who don't use it with proper technique... i've heard mixed things regarding the reliability of this method and when used perfectly i've heard stats into the mid 90s!! we still go w/ it :D better than so many other methods... can't do hormonal... condoms = :( Fox and Rabbit... don't agree w/ IUDs and wouldn't want one in me (i was in the ER last year because i had a bad stomach bug and got dehydrated and needed an IV since i blacked out... there was a girl screaming in the room next to me and we heard them talking and apparently she had an IUD that punctured her uterus; my goodness)... so we kinda fell into pull out plus our version of FAM and might pick up the diaphragm if we can find a place to get it, but we aren't too desperate as this works for now (and in the small chance it isn't... well then i guess maybe we get a kid a bit before we're ready... but believe me, i've heard a bunch of stories of people using this method successfully for years; we have complete confidence, but i get it if you don't cause it's controversial and has a bad reputation :D )! What do you guys use?
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby George B. » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:31 am

just to add--we're one of those couples which used it for years as BC (actually, we used FAM and condoms, but we didn't put the condom on until the very end). So we were engaging in "unprotected" sex during her fertile time until we were both ready to climax and then we would put the condom on. It worked great for us. We're very fertile in general, so that's why I have trouble believing that there's sperm in pre-ejaculate. We would have had lots of unintended pregnancies if that had been the case, since we were having "unprotected" sex during her fertile time.

We wouldn't exactly "pull out" though, by which, I mean that we wouldn't just pull out right before climax. I was pulling out well before climax and then putting on a condom, which might have made a lot of difference. This method requires a LOT of control and awareness of when climax is approaching, which is why I recommend guys who want to try it also do a lot of kegels, both for control and impending climax awareness.
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:01 am

George B. wrote:. I was pulling out well before climax and then putting on a condom, which might have made a lot of difference. This method requires a LOT of control and awareness of when climax is approaching, which is why I recommend guys who want to try it also do a lot of kegels, both for control and impending climax awareness.


Interesting and thanks for your input!! I will also say another thing i like about FAM plus WD is not only natural and not that uncomfortable, and we work with and not against or bodies... but we are BOTH actively responsible for planning our family, and if it "failed' we'd both be responsible. I am responsible for monitoring my cycles and fertility... he is responsible for pulling out when i am possibly fertile, and we decide what risk we take and are aware if we take a risk... it's a team effort to plan our family and holistic :D and i like that!
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby George B. » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:28 am

FoxluvsBunny wrote:
George B. wrote:. I was pulling out well before climax and then putting on a condom, which might have made a lot of difference. This method requires a LOT of control and awareness of when climax is approaching, which is why I recommend guys who want to try it also do a lot of kegels, both for control and impending climax awareness.


Interesting and thanks for your input!! I will also say another thing i like about FAM plus WD is not only natural and not that uncomfortable, and we work with and not against or bodies... but we are BOTH actively responsible for planning our family, and if it "failed' we'd both be responsible. I am responsible for monitoring my cycles and fertility... he is responsible for pulling out when i am possibly fertile, and we decide what risk we take and are aware if we take a risk... it's a team effort to plan our family and holistic :D and i like that!


that's a good point. Glad it's working for you guys!
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:46 am

so far so good! :) i'm glad we sort of found a rhythm of what we do... it no longer feels like a burden like it did at the beginning, just part of our sex life (we talk about if we need to pull out, and do it and we are both aware of where we are w/ things...)... we are confident, but what gives us peace is even though we would need lots of changes, we wouldn't ever consider a failure a "failure" really; it would be kinda a scary change (given we've had LOTS of change this past year and it's been a hard year due to that), but also just a life redirection and gift from the Lord... we both truly love kids and dream of having them, but are taking (in our opinion) reasonable (but not over the top methods that would ruin our enjoyment; we aren't the type of couple to be looking for the 99.9% effective method because i've looked at many methods and most of those have some things i consider major negative draw backs) to postpone babies until we feel a bit more ready and have a bit more of a foundation, but not for too terribly long! so for now i'm a proponent of this method.
Last edited by FoxluvsBunny on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby Medic » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:48 am

Some thoughts on research and a few other things.

In regards to the Mayo study I am not sure exactly how they conducted their experimentation and research. I have only read their official statement (which would be a basic summary of the abstract and facts found). I would have to read their research. What I do know is that the Mayo (especially amongst the medical community) is known for producing solid research and being unbiased. There goal is helping patients (not a profit). They are one of the premier medical institutions in the world. In medical research conducting good experiments (accounting for errors in statistics, people studied, variations, control, not letting hypothesis affect out come etc) is of the utmost importance.

A couple of concerns about research is where is it from? Statistics can be skewed very easily to fit data. For example toothpaste company A can say "9/10 dentists recommend our toothpaste!"... How many dentists did they ask? They could have asked 10. :shock: Scary thought. The more people that can be involved in an experiment and the more carefully things can be monitored and controlled the more accurate the data can be. Is the study of 20 people or 5million people? Which of those will be more accurate? The more people the better.

Also if I were to conduct my own research it can be easy to let our feeling get in the way or to ask too few. For instance in MN (where I am from) if I hypothesized that "most people like ketchup on hotdogs." (I adore ketchup). I could then ask 40 of my closest buds "Do you like ketchup." Suppose 34 said "yes." I did not ask people in California who may not like ketchup on their hotdogs (my cousins from Cali think ketchup on a hotdog is gross and would have hte opposite view of my hypothesis :mrgreen: ) Have I asked people all over the US (people I don't know?) etc. In the same way is my "liking" of ketchup getting in the way? That being said this is an irreverent silly example. Point and case being this method of BC is both natural, convenient for many, and free (what more could you ask for benefits!!!! :wink:) for myself these reasons are enough for me to begin to hope that it will and does work. This is easy to do and right there I have skewed things already.

All of that being said I trust the Mayo, but I would have to read their full research documents before I could tell you how many people were involved in the experiment and how they tested this. I will say while this may not be an important study (as considered in the various research they do) they would be hurting their reputation to state something that is disreputable. The entire point of publishing research data and studies is so that other scientists can go and follow your exact method and achieve the same results. Good research is absolutely repeatable.

Enough on that some other thoughts
---

The Mayo actually in many ways was positive of the Pull Out method being as you said there are no possible harmful effects (it is natural). It also is free (being BC can be expensive). I know the certain BC's can really not be fun in lots of really random ways. They (the Mayo) state however that is a 28^% chance of failure within one year.

A couple of thoughts upon that:
-The lingo used for pre-ejuculate containing sperm is not it definitely does. It sometimes does. Perhaps for some men they do and some they don't. Perhaps at different stages off life or with different balances (hormones, vitamins etc) this would affect
-Some women can cycle more frequently (thus increasing chances theoretically).
-Some women have a more acidic vagina... the more acidic the less likely pregnancy is to occur as sperm have a significantly shorter life span (1 day vs 3 for example).

If you can see where I am going there are myriad of things that could affect this (well that affect becoming pregnant in general). Thus for some people it might "work" great as some the anecdotal accounts of many people you know. For some people it might really not. Possibly (if the 28% is true) you happen to know people who are mostly in the 28%.

My point in playing devils advocate here is to emphasize the point that while many have had good (or bad) experiences they are anecdotal and correctly conducted research is good thing to consider (This is important for any BC or method or medical decision)). I know for myself and I would imagine most humans in general take great comfort in value in anecdotal findings. I mean to face it reading through long detailed extremely repetitive verbose clinical research is anything but personal and often is not comforting. So for some it may work (I am not saying it didn't) and I am not recommending people don't try this. I am recommending doing good research and considering research that is done by reputable scientists and institutions (which many of you probably have done). I think it is great that is natural, free, and for the most part easy. Just there is that chance (which I would consider significant :wink: ) and if one (such as @FoxluvsBunny) who is ok with having kids more power to you. More I just advocate for careful consideration. Children are certainly a blessing (no question in my mind).

Opinion: Most OBGYN's I know are very considerate of natural treatment (doctors actually like natural things when ever they can and many medications I would consider to be natural) and it is slightly worrisome to me that the few (I know) absolutely do not recommend it as they have not seen it to be effective in their practices. This is of course anecdotal :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Anyways I have played my devils advocate and will let this thread go back to its destined course.

PS: @FoxluvsBunny we use a pills. We also use condoms or oral when she is ovulating. I do have opinions on BC and IUD's (from a medical perspective) if you are interested (and you may not be :mrgreen: ). I have rambled on enough and those thoughts are for another thread at another time. I have derailed this one enough. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby Medic » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:53 am

Also one other minor question (for the women) that may add to this discussion. Do you enjoy this method as much?

I had read in book on female sexuality (married love by Maria Stokes and yes I know it is old and she is controversial) that it was not as enjoyable (didn't feel satisfying) for the man to pull out at the last second. In her book she did not recommend it and thought husbands who dad that were in some ways ungenerous. So I was curious as to whether any women feel this way or if that is absolutely false (I mean people in the 30's were crazy right?!? :mrgreen: )

I do realize this method is only used according to the calendar (rather than every-time), but just curious if anyone would shed some light.

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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:55 am

You are smart. haha. i can tell you are a "medic" al professional lol... i was never so scientific about my search!
Medic wrote: and if one (such as @FoxluvsBunny) who is ok with having kids more power to you.


i don't know if we'd be that "ok" to consciously open the door... i feel my heart has softened to this over the past year, and we had one little scare (messed up a chart... God ended up making me ovulate a week late, so we no longer were at risk) and i realized we'd be as joyful as scared if something did happen. When i told dh we weren't at risk anymore, he was relieved and slightly disappointed. I know that i want kids and know it might be a bit difficult so i have a slightly different perspective, where i'd be scared and overjoyed, and would never be like "uggggh it FAILED"... in fact today is our 9 month wedding anniversary, and i texted DH "happy 9 months" and he just responded that we'd be having our honeymoon baby about now if it happened... haha

Medic wrote:Opinion: Most OBGYN's I know are very considerate of natural treatment (doctors actually like natural things when ever they can and many medications I would consider to be natural) and it is slightly worrisome to me that the few (I know) absolutely do not recommend it as they have not seen it to be effective in their practices.

I Have NEVER EVER met a gyno considerate of natural treatments. I've been pushed to go on the pill or hormonal methods by a few (as i had a few unsuccessful diaphragm fitting before our marriage)... as i was more closed at that point, and they told me non hormonal wasn't effective and to get an IUD or something. That's why i see a midwife for female care. They are very positive about our methods and actually listen and educate and don't judge us or push medications in my face! I am very natural minded and don't like most drugs (unless in a medical necessity)... better a baby in my uterus than an IUD in my book.

Medic wrote:FoxluvsBunny we use a pills. We also use condoms or oral when she is ovulating.

Usually pills inhibit ovulation... i'm curious what the mechanism is in her pill if she actually ovulates on it. I'd be curious if she charted her fertility if she's really ovulating on the pill as maybe she needs a new one, since that defeats the point IMHO.

Medic wrote:Also one other minor question (for the women) that may add to this discussion. Do you enjoy this method as much?

I had read in book on female sexuality (married love by Maria Stokes and yes I know it is old and she is controversial) that it was not as enjoyable (didn't feel satisfying) for the man to pull out at the last second. In her book she did not recommend it and thought husbands who dad that were in some ways ungenerous. So I was curious as to whether any women feel this way or if that is absolutely false (I mean people in the 30's were crazy right?!? )


Well, Medic... no it's not as great as finishing together, but we are used to it... and we are used to the rhythm of pulling out at certain times,and it makes us appreciate not doing it more, and excited about when we feel a peace about leaving it all in the hands of God and having fun and being completely open to blessings that may come w/ it... It's not ungenerous that my husband is responsible and does his part in this method. Yeah... it's not as fun, but it's just a part of our sex life, and something we do and IMHO so much better than other methods (hormonal, condoms)... :) just my 2cents
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby Medic » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:09 pm

*Sorry if this is getting off the intent of the thread it can be moved or deleted if need be*

I think of kids as something that may simply happen :lol: . I am not opposed I have been incredibly excited to have kids since I was about 12-14 :mrgreen: That being said I still have a lot of schooling ahead of me and I am still at the stage where I might have "too much fun with kids." :roll: :oops: Actually the past few months I have somewhat been not thinking about having kids... I have just REALLY been enjoying my time with Tigger. :wink: :mrgreen: So at some point... unless God plans sooner.

If I might express something to you? There are a lot of people who do not trust doctors and medicine. I get it. For starters not everyone is actually a good Doc. However an increasing problem is how busy doctors are (this will only get worse as shortages increase in the US). Doctors who before had time to explain are under greater pressure "to see more patients" and quantity is focused on rather than quality care. This is what many hospital systems push for and what many doctors have to do unfortunately. Also something medical school can focus on is how smart the doctors is rather than whether a doctor is good with patients. In my time working in the ER I encountered some really "smart" doctors who had ZERO bedside manner. They did not care how their patients felt, they did not care to explain when a patient was ignorant, and they had no sensitivity to how a patient felt. That IMO is unethical and wrong. For any of you reading this where that has been your experience with anyone in the medical community I am sorry.

To a point this is problem I am facing as I am trying to get a medical degree. I care about people, but I am TERRIBLE at chemistry. I will see if I make it. If God wills I shall prevail! Personally I would rather have a doctor who care about patients (and is competent) rather than one who knows everything but cannot effectively communicate that.
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To simply put it I know almost nothing about cars. I wish I did, but I do not. I don't know how to change the lights, change the oil, or really do anything. I am ignorant. It isn't wrong of me to be so, it just means I am not the guy to do car work. The human body is infinitely more complex. This is why it takes a doctor 12-20 years of rigorous studying (depending how complex their training, schooling, and if they branch out into several areas). In those years of education they learn a lot. They become very wise in the ways of the body. Many of the doctors I worked with have amazed me with their detailed knowledge of intricate things and their ability to fly into action when something is wrong (ER work keep in mind). Sometimes what we do not understand is to them (doctors) basic common knowledge. Working in the ER you honestly had to explain the same things over and over to patients. Some doctors unfortunately get tired of explaining why. In my opinion this is one of the most important aspects of the job. While they may have 1-2 decades of schooling that schooling is much more effective when it can be explained!

So I may not know your OBGYN, but it is my guess they had very good reasoning for what they told. They may have been in a rush and been very forceful in recommendations without explaining their reasoning or communicating effectively. I am sorry about that. It is bad patient care. If your OBGYN is not caring and considerate I might advocate for you to find one that does (if you are able to). Tiggers first OBGYN was a really terrible experience for her. She switched and her current OBGYN is fantastic! Her current one takes time to explain benefits and risks, clears up misunderstandings, is patient, and very comforting. In my opinion she is everything an OBGYN should be.
Fortunately doctors are very smart, but unfortunately some have let it get to their head! Find one you feel comfortable with who can communicate effectively it is worth it!


(THIS PART MAY BE SKIPPED HAS NOTHING TO WITH THREAD)

Another thing I might mention is pharmacology. This is the study of drug interactions with the body. Now personally I do not take any medications I do not have to as many have side effects. I do want to say that "drugs" does not mean EVIL. What are drugs made from and designed from? Plants and herbs (most of the time). So consider that many drugs are more natural than you might think (if you are curious I would encourage you to study some biology and pharmacology). I would also advice befriending a pharmicist/pharmacology major. They usually have the low down on what drugs are incredibly beneficial and which are harmful. It can be frustrating that there are really good helpful drugs, but people will not use them because they are afraid.... :? A few examples being. I have seen WAY too many babies in the ER who do not (technically) have a fever and even when babies do have fevers (and I understand scared parents) most of the time THE PARENTS HAVE NOT EVEN GIVEN TYLENOL! :evil: :hb: Tylenol simply works period. It reduces fever and saves kids lives. ::al We will give them Tylenol in the ER (we do however charge 10-30x probably). Another time I found frustrating was when I was first in college. At the time I was renting a room from a family. The husband and wife who I lived with were "against formal medicine." The wife came down with shingles. For two months the husband was trying all of this massive vitamin C dosage routine and weird internet conspiracy treatments. Meanwhile his wife was VERY sick, in lots of pain, and was getting worse. I felt so bad for her, but her husband would not let her go to the doctor. Finally after the 3rd month he gave in and they went to the doctor and got the appropriate medication. She was without pain almost immediately and totally fine in less than a week.
Sorry if I started ranting, but I it is frustrating when we have the means to help people....

That being said there are a LOT of really sketchy medications out there. Most drugs have contraindications, some have bad side effects, and many do not work well with other drugs. I trust older drugs more than "new" ones. Old ones have better track record. There are also good drugs such Aspirin which is actually really healthy for most people to take (it saves lives and people can live much longer). So again they are not all bad. Remember most drugs are either made from plants or are synthesized versions of plants. Plants may be "natural" but some can be just as harmful as medication. If curious study pharmacology or make friends with someone who knows their stuff who can help you weed through the mess.

On BC. From my learning most hormonal BC just gives you more hormones (nothing unnatural there). As far as IUD's go they can actually be great. They have gotten a lot better over the years and continue to become better. They are not for everyone, but all of the OBGYN's I know love them. Keep in mind these are Christian Pro-life women. The most unanimous voice seems to be for the Mirena. Of the two OBGYN;s I have talked to about it 1 OBGYN has it herself and the other's two daughters have it (if she was still of child bearing age she stated she would have had it). I know an ER doc (former OBGYN for 30+ years) who will often X-ray women who have the Mirena. Radiology (xrays and CT scans) expose patients to radiation. This is not a big deal for adults, but can be especially harmful for children and unborn. Before a woman of child bearing age can under go radiology it is common practice to make sure she is not pregnant (unless the patients life is on the line). You can get in big trouble/get sued if you radiate a women who is pregnant. The ER doctor (former OBGYN) will take the Mirena as "not pregnant" and go ahead with the scan (keep in mind people who have their "tubes tied" or do not have the MIrena get a pregnancy test before scanning). Statistically they more effective than having your tubes tied! There are a lot of other benefits. My wife, her own decision not mine, would have got one, but she is currently unable to. What it really comes down to is having done what you are comfortable with. Something can be really great, but if you don't feel good about it don't get it. It is your body and your family. Keep in mind for IUD's getting a good brand (there are bad ones) having it correctly placed by a competent OBGYN, and having it removed at the proper time are important. Tiggers OBGYN places about 1-2 Mirena's a day and told us she would not be comfortable recommending it to patients if she wouldn't use it herself and if it was not effective. Again this all comes down to finding a good OBGYN who can explain things.
STOP SKIPPING BACK ON TRACK (rant over :mrgreen: )

FoxluvsBunny wrote:Usually pills inhibit ovulation... I'm curious what the mechanism is in her pill if she actually ovulates on it. I'd be curious if she charted her fertility if she's really ovulating on the pill as maybe she needs a new one, since that defeats the point IMHO.

Perhaps ovulate isn't the right word... :oops: More when in doubt we use other methods too. IE when she is feeling extra frisky, when using abx, or if she has missed a pill due to illness. She has a REALLY weird cycle (usually 2x per month) being on birth control has helped this, but while they are working it is still irregular and she seems to ovulate sometimes. The first two Birth Controls she did try had bad side effects. The first one she had little interest in me and the 2nd meant she was bleeding all the time. After two months of that we switched :mrgreen: We both like her current one :mrgreen:

As far as how the pulling out method feels (vs not) thanks for the input and your thoughts on it. I wouldn't view it as ungenerous either. Just it was interesting to hear an author so vehemently against it. Granted that author was one VERY opinionated woman who was involved with some very dubious people. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby Medic » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:39 pm

As I have access to medical journals and academic articles I have been doing some research for fun.

I have been reading the Journal of sexual Medicine and appears you guys are correct (not surprised). :D According to their research (differs from Mayo) but I have a little more to read here (actual research rather than abstracts). Roughly 18-28% heterosexual couples practicing Coitus Interruptus (withdrawal method) will become pregnant in one year. However if done correctly rates of pregnancy can be as little as 4%. This is interesting. The emphasis being on correct usage.

This information is cited from the following:
Hatcher RA, Trussell J, Nelson AL, Cates W Jr, Stewart F.
Contraceptive technology. 19th edition. New York, NY:
Ardent Media; 2007


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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby FoxluvsBunny » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:39 pm

Medic wrote:I think of kids as something that may simply happen . I am not opposed I have been incredibly excited to have kids since I was about 12-14

Yes!! love the attitude... i think i remember reading you were like 20... we are both 25, and i get to age in 2 months- yikes! me getting old... so i have this feeling lately like the clock is ticking esp w/ potential fertility issues! I'd try sooner (a part of me more than ever lately w/ so many people around me having kids would love a baby), but we have stuff to figure out before we feel it would be wise to consciously open that door! Hence why we pull out sometimes :mrgreen:

Medic wrote:Also something medical school can focus on is how smart the doctors is rather than whether a doctor is good with patients. In my time working in the ER I encountered some really "smart" doctors who had ZERO bedside manner.

Yes, i've seen that big time and have had a few horrendous bedside manner experiences w/ doctors (from a doctor telling me that i was androgynous because of a high testosterone condition- so i felt manly and it affected me self esteem, to a gyno who told me that sex would probably hurt alot cause i was so small and didnt explain more or reassure me that i was structurally normal; to a endo who didn't take me seriously when i had bad side effects from a med they prescribed or questioned my diagnosis and brought in research: was asked "when did you go to medical school", to shut me up to not ask questions; to a doc who just had downright rude bedside manner and wasn't reassuring when they told me i had a septic kidney infection and gave me antibiotics and left and i needed reassurance that i wasn't dying or something (and as an very anxious wreck patient i need someone nurturing- it IS important)... 'I've also had bad experiences w/ docs missing diagnoses for years. In terms of bedside manner i've found midwives are much better at that... and take more time.

Medic wrote:To a point this is problem I am facing as I am trying to get a medical degree. I care about people, but I am TERRIBLE at chemistry.

embarrassingly this is why i'm an occupational therapist, and not a nutritionist, which i also really thought of doing... i can't do chem for beans... whatever His will :) He will lead you... you sound very medically smart to me... plus with your gentle spirit, i'm sure you'd be a much better doc than those who can do all the memorization perfectly and stuff. I bet you'll be great and used by Him in your field for great things.

Medic wrote:Meanwhile his wife was VERY sick, in lots of pain, and was getting worse. I felt so bad for her, but her husband would not let her go to the doctor. Finally after the 3rd month he gave in and they went to the doctor and got the appropriate medication. She was without pain almost immediately and totally fine in less than a week.

so i've had a few really bad doctor experiences... missing diagnoses... i had been prescribed a few drugs i had very bad reactions to including the pill (for issues w/ my cycle in the past not for birth control... and my heart started doing extra beats and skipping beats frequently and the doc didn't take me seriously!!!! It was one of the scariest experiences ever, and after that plus a few other experiences, i don't trust docs... but at the same time... i know also from experience holistic medicine has big flaws. I got a life threatening kidney infection 2.5 years ago because i had a lingering bladder infection for months that i was trying to treat w/ vitamins and herbs, and it went on so long, i just thought it was something to ignore. Then i got a 104 degree fever and severe pain, and after it stayed up a few days (didn't put two and two together since the bladder stuff had just become normal), could barely get out of bed but my mom finally dragged me to the doc, the doc sent me to the ER right away, and it turns out i had a septic kidney infection and was there for almost a week on IV antibiotics that saved my life... that taught me that medications have an important place and i felt stupid turning down antibiotics because i was scared of the effects of being on too many of them. As someone who may need drugs to get or stay pregnant and it could turn high risk... because of an endocrine condition, that's another reason i'm scared to be pregnant (since i kinda am medication phobic).. but better than the alternative... have to find that balance w/ it all :D ps: tylenol has it's place, but IMHO it has risks and is overused...


Medic wrote:After two months of that we switched We both like her current one

so glad to hear it!!! :D

thanks for the medical journal article!!

blessings!!!
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Re: Pull out method for birth control

Postby George B. » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:27 pm

Medic wrote:This information is cited from the following:
Hatcher RA, Trussell J, Nelson AL, Cates W Jr, Stewart F.
Contraceptive technology. 19th edition. New York, NY:
Ardent Media; 2007

thanks for finding this! Yes, that's the study I'd seen before. I'd love to see a more comprehensive study. we feel like we were doing the pull-out method correctly (we pulled out WAY before most couples) which contributed to it being effective. Like I said before, we're VERY fertile, and we were using it during her fertile periods so we should have gotten pregnant multiple times over several years if there had been enough sperm in my pre-ejaculate to cause pregnancy. I realized that my story was anecdotal. Nice to see the study I'd read resurface to back up my thoughts on the matter. :mrgreen: Thanks for finding that, Medic.
On sex: "Neither men nor women will be asked to throw away the weapon they have used victoriously. It is the beaten and the fugitives who throw away their swords. The conquerors sheathe theirs and retain them."-C.S. Lewis


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