Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

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Job29Man
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Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby Job29Man » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:34 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mduUbJTdXag&t=305s

This commentary talks about soy in N. American diets possibly contributing to a 1% decline in male testosterone every year. Meaning, male T has dropped 50% since the 1950s. Can this be correct?
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby Unfulfilled » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:50 am

I just read this morning a article from the Newsweek, related to the massive decline in male sperm count almost exclusively in the men in "Western" societies.

I hope this link works: http://www.newsweek.com/2017/09/22/male ... 63074.html

It is not only soy, but other food supplies and endocrine disrupters in our food, water, plastics, flame retardants and even water that has remnants of hormonal birth control which are NOT removed through the man made water treatment process.

Most of these chemicals have an increased estrogen exposure and eatrogen like reaponses in men.

If this was true, then what would you expect to see in the population? Well... decreases sperm count, increased ED and impotence, low T.

If advertisements are any indications, we see a lot of adds for treating low T, ED, cialis, viagria etc

The article I link as stated above indicates these issues (along with decreases activity and increased obesity) to western cultures. Populations who do NOT eat western diet, do not get exposed to weatern chemicals, and who remain physically active do NOT have the significant decrease in sperm count.

Things that make you say hummmm.

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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby ledgemoor » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:01 am

I'm skeptical. Soy is a staple not just in Japan, but across Asia. I am not familiar enough with the Japanese culture to know if they consume primarily fermented soy or not. But I am familiar with the Chinese culture and others over there. Unfermented tofu is the norm.

DW's bHRT doctor said that at a a4m conference https://www.a4m.com/ there was a presentation of some research that showed that soy estrogen is not processed by humans. Women eating soy or taking soy supplements to raise their estrogen are getting no effect from it.

As Unfulfilled points out, there is a lot going on. The scariest in my opinion is the effects of insecticide bred into plants (now known to be the cause of the honeybee downtrend. That stuff has been outlawed in France and the bees are coming back). And the widespread of Glyphosate (Roundup).

It isn't all what we eat. Part of the problem is no doubt the war on masculinity. Doing masculine things increases testosterone. Modern society discourages boys from doing masculine things.

Meaning, male T has dropped 50% since the 1950s
More like 60 years. Yes, our testosterone has decreased, but not that much.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby Job29Man » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:14 am

ledgemoor wrote:I'm skeptical. Soy is a staple not just in Japan, but across Asia. I am not familiar enough with the Japanese culture to know if they consume primarily fermented soy or not. But I am familiar with the Chinese culture and others over there. Unfermented tofu is the norm.

My understanding is that Japanese eat fermented soy. In China, you are correct, they eat unfermented tofu, but they sit down to eat tofu. It's on a dish and they know they are eating soy; they can see it and say "there's the soy, right there on my plate." The difference is that in N. America we put soy meal, soy flour, soy yada yada all throughout our processed/packaged foods. It's an expander, a filler, a cheap "food" thingee that you don't know you are eating. It's in your breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks. Why? It's really, really cheap! More profits. With soy (and corn) Big Food makes "food product." This is different than "food." I can't document it, but I think you might find that N. Americans eat way more soy than Chinese in China.

ledgemoor wrote: It isn't all what we eat. Part of the problem is no doubt the war on masculinity. Doing masculine things increases testosterone. Modern society discourages boys from doing masculine things.
Yes, I agree. I've been studying the effects of masculine society, masculine teams and comraderie and especially rivalry and a "fighting" setting, upon the level of testosterone in men. Where men are either threatened or competing their T levels jump higher; higher in prison, higher on football teams, higher among soldiers at war. Where there is no conflict, less competition, less struggle, T levels drop. You can even pump up your T levels by assuming a stance of feet wide, arms raised, fists clenched, and do a 'threatening male ape display" while grunting aggressively for 2 minutes. This works for males and females by the way.

If you've ever done power-lifting at the gym you'll know that there is a "Psych up, pump up" routine you go through just before going for "the big lift."

Job29Man wrote:Meaning, male T has dropped 50% since the 1950s

ledgemoor wrote: More like 60 years. Yes, our testosterone has decreased, but not that much.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17062768NIH abstract of study of generational decline in male Testosterone level, concludes that the decline is "substantial."

Personally I think there's a "perfect storm" of T diminishing factors in the past 30 years; feminized society that punishes masculine behavior, all manner of food additives (not just soy), estrogen drugs that are not fully filtered out of the water supply, sedentary lifestyles, porn addiction, and environmental pollutants (in the air, water, food, even radiation from microwaves etc).

No question in my mind that the young men I observe today, are not the same as the same aged young men I observed 40 and 50 years ago.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby The Twit » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:58 am

I will add that with the estrogen in the water, we can also see it in the food supply. Bovine growth hormone has been used in many aspects to help develop female cows, not develop male cows. So what would be a leading ingredient in BGH? That's right - estrogen. Granted it is a bio-identical form of estrogen for cattle but it is still estrogen. If we are finding trace amounts of antibiotics used in animals in the meat and other products, would it not be obvious that the estrogen is also being found?

Another thing. The packaging of foods. Instead of using the petroleum based plastics, we are seeing the use of soybean, corn, and wood pulp as the basis of making some plastics. These plastics are degradable as requested by many environmentalists. I have used a few of those in hot drinks and found that they start to degrade. So what are these plastics doing and how much is leaching into our food during the production and processing.

We also are eating more processed foods. Just look at your pantry. How many make soups from scratch? How about macaroni or pasta? What about cereals? Also we see that the recommended diet for years has been heavy in grains. What do they push into animals as they are fattening them up? More grains. So when we eat a diet with more grains we are fattening ourselves which then affects our activity and will decrease our T levels.

Another aspect is how young boys and men are not out running free and wild like they used too. Part of it is protection (overprotection). Part is the advent of more and more computer/TV games. Part of it is the forcing of little boys to sit still in schools. So to do that they are being shove Ritalin and other psychotic drugs. Who knows how much of this is causing problems. Also with the fear of brain damage in older years we are seeing less boys go into football or other sports of physical contact.

A side note what is long term affect to our bodies with all of the free electricity and radio waves that surround us. We are starting to see that heavy cell phone use and heavy WiFi use does cause problems with some people? What about the rest of us who do not see issues right now but later in life?

So is soy the only thing? No, but as JobMan has stated, it is a perfect storm of food, activity (lack of it), attitude against old fashion masculinity in boys and men, and pollutants seen and unseen. I am a testing engineer for a company that manufacturers high end residential cooking products. I had spent the previous 22 years working in the building products area. I have seen and am studying all of the various affects of the manufacturing processes, the materials we are making, and other factors that affect the life safety. Yesterday we are just starting to study hidden damage to humans. Most of the processes and procedures are designed to help reduce immediate risks and injury, and the biggest is to produce products faster and cheaper.

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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby SquarePants » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:22 pm

I'm skeptical of the theories about soy and the trace chemicals from plastics. The simplest explanation I've seen is that we are less active and we eat more simple calories since the 50s. Body fat contains naturally aromatase, which is an enzyme which converts testosterone into estrogen. Higher body fat means more aromatase, so more testosterone gets converted into estrogen. There are lots of correlations that can be found, but correlation does not prove causation.

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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby Job29Man » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:38 pm

The Twit wrote:We also are eating more processed foods. Just look at your pantry. How many make soups from scratch?
We only make scratch soups. After we eat meat, like turkey, chicken, goat, lamb ... I cut open the big bones so we can get all the marrow exposed, then I set up a 20 qt. kettle and thrown in the entire carcass and boil it down for hours. Then I strain out the little bones and such, let the liquid cool, and put it all into gallon freezer baggies to keep as soup stock. When ready for soup we thaw out one of those stock "bricks" and add whatever fresh foods into it for delicious soup.

The Twit wrote:How about macaroni or pasta?
Not traditional. Our pasta is made from zucchini strips.

The Twit wrote:What about cereals?
Don't have any because it's grain.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby ledgemoor » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:24 pm

Job, here is the full article behind the abstract you referenced, if you have time to wade thru it. I don't.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-l ... .2006-1375

Fig 1 gives you a picture of the severity of the problem. There has been about a 100 point drop for a 60-yo from the first group to the 3rd. I notice one thing that is screwy. They have the mean level for a 45-yo in the 1987 group at about 530. That is way low in itself. Most 45-year-olds would be higher than that today I would hope. A sampling error perhaps? The study was done in Boston. Everyone knows that Southern men are way more masculine :lol:.

Anyway, I'd be interested in anything you find if you read it.

Another problem with the soy theory is that they are claiming that soy is estrogenic, yet they are kvetching about testosterone levels dropping. If you want to show that soy is estrogenic, show me a study that correlates estrogen with soy consumption. Or better yet, put a bunch of people on a high-soy diet for a month and compare their estrogen levels before and after. My Oriental wife will volunteer. She loves the stuff, and would have low estrogen levels if it were not for bHRT.

Job, try a spaghetti squash. It's gotta be better than zucchini pasta. And would be less work to prepare. And cool to play with. It looks like a squash until you cook it. Then it turns into spaghetti-sized strands.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby Unfulfilled » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:58 am

Not so sure T level of 45 year old at 530 is that out of whack.

My levels at 49 were at about 440. And I am only a few pounds ocer seight from ideal, exercise regularly and stay in shape, eat a fairly good diet. Do everything they say to do in Order to have solid T levels, yet my levels are about the same as what a lerson 10 years older might expect.

Maybe I am just lower T person.....Or maybe I am a representative sample of this generatshowing a marked lower T than the same afe men a few decades ago.

The lower T levels and speem counts etc are significant if nkt dramatic and is real. The cause I think is certainly a combination of things. Our [edit] food supply and chemicals etc all contribute. Soy I habe read (nonfermented) has numerous negative health aspects to it. A person cannot hardly buy food in the USA that doesn't have some Soy component or ingredients in it.

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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby Job29Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:07 am

ledgemoor wrote:Job, here is the full article behind the abstract you referenced, if you have time to wade thru it. I don't.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-l ... .2006-1375

Thanks, I'll try to get to it this week.

ledgemoor wrote:Job, try a spaghetti squash. It's gotta be better than zucchini pasta. And would be less work to prepare. And cool to play with. It looks like a squash until you cook it. Then it turns into spaghetti-sized strands.
Yup. Spaghetti squash is one of our favorites. We eat a lot of it. But the zucchini makes big wide noodles that you can use to make lasagna.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby George B. » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:08 pm

good thing I'm allergic to soy.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby El Husbandido » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:27 pm

The Art of Manliness just had a great podcast on how to naturally increase testosterone.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2017/09/0 ... naturally/
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby be64 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:41 pm

I pretty much agree with the statements about soy and other estrogen like compounds. While I'm sure they can't be avoided entirely, I do my best.

As far as naturally boosting testosterone goes I think it's kind of hopeless. While various things may give some increase, men with low testosterone need a 400-500% increase. Nothing outside of hormone replacement can give that large of an increase.

I'm almost 53 and my testosterone level is around 1000-1200. It's that high because I inject it.
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Re: Soy and Decrease in Male Testosterone

Postby MrsTom » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:35 pm

There was an article years ago written by an author named Rutz re: the feminizing effects of soy formula on baby boys. He got totally missed on it, but I think the idea is sound.
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