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Reason: Updated some info
Job29Man wrote:Dear Brother,
I am going to give you my honest reaction, and I want to assure you these are the exact same words I would give to my real life flesh and blood brother, in the same tone. You can't see or hear me, so you'll just have to trust me when I say that my tone is friendly, but firm and serious. If you could see me you'd know by my facial expressions that I am taking you seriously, but in love I am not going to cut you any slack. You deserve the best advice I can give, and I hope you will give me the right to deal straight and not pull any punches, just like I would with my real brother.
I am going to make a presumption that you respect me. I have no right to presume this, so forgive me please if it is not true. But it is important that you listen to someone whom you respect. Do a search by author for Job29man, and specify "posts" rather than "topics". Read my posts. If you respect what you see there then listen to me. If I don't deserve your respect then ignore everything I say please.
I have read all the responses on this thread, and I see nothing but care and love from all these brothers and sisters for you. I feel like I understand the hearts behind the posts. I do not presume to speak for them, only for myself, but I hope they may agree with me. I hope that we can agree as the TMB community, on a course of love-filled action for you to take.
(I'm going to try something new here, and I ask everyone on this thread to consider going along with me on this. You don't have to, but it would be nice.)
Notice brother, I do not call you by your chosen name "Mr. Pathetic." I will never call you that because I believe I would show you disrespect by doing so. You do not respect yourself, but I will show you respect. If you chose the name "Mr. Stupid" I would not call you that even though you ask me to.
A name is an important thing. Let me tell you a story...
When I named each of my ten children here is how I did it. I have always admired an American Indian tradition of naming babies. Although I do not accept the Indian religions, I have adopted this tradition and adapted it (quite a bit) to my Christian faith and my personal patriarchal philosophy. The Indians of one particular tribe allowed a tribal elder to name each child. In my family I do this, but it is the same idea.
I was in the delivery room at the birth of each child. Prior to the birth of each one Mrs Job and I discussed and agreed on possible names for each child. We never knew the sex first. Mrs Job and I would agree on a name, or sometimes she gave me her blessing to make the final choice of name from a group of names upon which we had agreed.
At the delivery of the child (I'll use the masculine gender here for simplicity) I would take the baby from the doctor and look at him through teary eyes, then kiss him on the forehead, and put my face close to him. I breathed close to his face so that with his first few breaths he inhaled some of the air from his father's lungs. My flesh, my bone, my breath, my son. Now all he lacked was my name.
All the doctors and nurses and my wife waited in silence for what they knew was to come. No one would ask me "What's his name?" because they knew my tradition.
I took the child off into the corner of the room and faced away from every one. With our backs turned to the world it was just baby, Daddy, and Jehovah there together. I bent down to the boy in my arms and whispered into his ear (so that no one else could hear)...
"Your name is David Samuel McJob Job. Welcome to the world David. I am your father. My name is Job. You will meet your Mother in a minute. Her name is Sarah. You are David, the son of Sarah and Job, the son of Job, the son of James, the son of Abraham, the son of Joseph, the son of Samuel."
Then I stared into his eyes. My son stared back. So that the first person he would really see and know in life was his father. This was important to me, because I know that it is so much easier for a child to come to understand that "God (his Heavenly Father) is Love" if he first knows that his earthly father is a very loving and present father.
I turned around and said to all present "God has given us a son. His name is David!" Then I would take him over and hand him to his mother Sarah.
A dignified name was given to him in a dignified and respectful way. He was carefully introduced to the world by his new name in a respectful way.
I do not believe that God wants you to disrespect yourself any longer. YOU MUST RESPECT YOURSELF. You cannot solve any problem in your life as long as you think you are pathetic. The time for that is past. Do you want to be healed of that? If you do, then the first step is that you need a new name.
I ask the members of TMB to no longer call you Mr. Pathetic. I ask you to not make another post under your old name.
Allow me please to be bold as a tribal elder and give you your new name. In the name of Jesus I rename you "Mr. Self Respect". Welcome to TMB Mr. Self Respect. Brothers and Sisters on TMB, I introduce to you our friend Mr. Self Respect. Please welcome him.
Mr. Self Respect I would ask you to not respond until you have been welcomed to TMB by a number of TMBers by your new name. Then before you respond I ask you to write to the OG and ask them to change your name to Mr. Self Respect.
(After that I'm going to come back and second the advice of several posters here, especially Mr. IRLMW, and suggest several concrete steps for you to pursue that will help you to regain your self respect, your dignity and maybe a measure of hapiness. But I'll wait till you come back as Mr. Self Respect).
Love in Christ,
As I PM'd to Job earlier, I think this is the most beautiful post I've seen on TMB. It was originally written to a member (Mr. Self Respect, are you still here?) who had a lack of respect for himself. This post roused feelings of love from the other board members and it practically brought tears to my eyes when I read it!
*The threads has been pruned, so no link.
datepalm wrote: Then there are the things the "TMB guys" have said.... The topic was "men's fantasies". They were talking about things like lingerie, lapdances, stripping, etc.
Then one of the men said this:
We (most of us) are not complex, we're not picky, and we're not going to judge your performance like Olympic judges. Pretty much any effort will get a 9.5, while a few minutes of planning will get you a 10.Another guy responded with:
My sentiment exactly. Does not take much for me.Guy #3 said:
PURSUE me for sex - flirt with me with the promise of more later#4 said:
I'd say that many men's fantasies can be summed up with [that]. All of the others show that she is thinking of me and sex. That's all I really want. The varied ways she expresses that is fun but it's the pursuit that makes us feel wanted and needed.Guy #5:
It's been said a number of times but just to emphasize again – any time my DW would take the time to plan anything sexual related and follow through would be overwhelming.#6:
The most important thing to me is that I feel desired.
Devoted2Dearling wrote:Dear ladies....
When are you EVER going to realize the most simple truth about godly men? I'm gonna yell now...
We love our wives' bodies!!! We do not care you are not Brittany Spears -- in fact, we're highly relieved to find out you are not! We love your body as it is! We know about the baby fat. We know about the cancer scars, the stretch marks, the little (and maybe some not so little) imperfections. And we love those imperfections because they are YOUR imperfections! We even find those imperfections sexy! They are YOUR imperfections.
So when we say we want to see you naked, we want to see you naked! We love seeing you naked! We like to think about you -- the real you -- naked! We aren't interested in someone else, or interested in a plastic version of you. We like you as you are, and are grateful you find us even mildly attractive!
So PU-LEEZE ladies. Don't be shy in front of your greatest admirer, your best friend, your one true beloved who wants to do nothing quite as much as adore that body you seem so ashamed of. WE are not ashamed of it. We can't wait to see it. We adore it.
And we are waiting for you to understand this. Don't ask yourself why we adore your bodies... instead, just tell yourself the truth. WE DO! And that, ladies, is that.
Fix the sex "thang" first?
SOS wrote:Been thinking about this a lot---what I'm really wanting are opinions from both men and women who did not have good sex or regular sex in their married life, and then made it to the place where things changed and now they do or have had for awhile. How has it changed your marriage? On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the top), what was your marriage before regular sex, and what is it now?
The reason I'm bringing this up is I keep seeing some situations where I see a couple with some real conflict and think, "Boy, I bet if they started trying to have some regular sex, it could sure calm things down a lot, to the point where it could really help them work on their other issues." There are times I hesitate to say this, wanting to be sensitive to someone's background, sexual abuse, porn issues, etc., but then I look at what it changed for DH and I, and just think, wow, not having sex sure doesn't help anything.
I guess I'm coming at this from the standpoint that getting the "sex ball" rolling sooner rather than later is a good idea. I understand someone can have flashbacks and all kinds of issues come up if they begin to engage in a regular sex life, but what I've also found is that over time, having regular sex on a consistent basis begins to replace those old flashbacks, those messages, and truly, sexuality eases into what it is in the present; a nice safe, warm place, of growth, health, excitement, passion, healing, stress-relief, and on and on. I just keep looking back and DH and I had had tons of marital counseling, we both had issues from our past (much of mine sexual abuse), but it wasn't until this part of our marriage got unstuck, that we started seeing growth in so many other areas, and the weird, and sad part to me, is I don't ever remember a single counselor saying, "fix the sex part first", it was, "fix everything else and good sex will follow". I'm not saying we didn't benefit from the other counseling, we did, I just don't think it's been a tenet of modern counseling to realize the importance of sex in marriage.
Please pardon my ignorance, part of me is still in shock that sex makes this much difference in marriage, which I think is probably its whole own topic---and for us the "sexual revolution" has been about three years---
I think the importance of sex has been minimized and trivialized, especially in Christian circles, and has done incredible damage to marriages and families; I think this is changing now---I for one am immensely grateful for TMB--- I told someone not to long ago, "Why didn't anyone tell us how vital this was/is in marriage?" Or in many of the sex abuse groups/counseling I participated in, the abuse was dealt with, but not the possibilites of awesome sex as continued healing redeeming the identity of sex as a beautiful regular healthy thing in marriage---
These last few lines from Robbed Seahawk are some of the best ever:
Robbed Seahawk wrote:Sex is a defining characteristic of marriage. It's what makes this relationship distinct from every other relationship. Therefore, if we're talking about marriage, sex is of defining, categorical importance.
Marriage is more than sex, to be sure; but it is not less.
The notion that friendship could be more important than sex in a marriage sounds pious and noble on the surface. But it's not.
What kind of friend would enter into an exclusive, permanent and physical bond with someone, and then defraud that person of the defining aspects of that bond? I think we all can agree on the following: (1) There is no true friendship in promising exclusive sexual allegiance and yet give yourself sexually to someone else. (2) There is no true friendship in turning a permanent bond into a temporary one, divorcing your partner. Finally, (3) there is no true friendship in setting yourself up as the one and only provider of a unique physical-emotional union and then refusing participation in said union.
Shipguy wrote:I am no expert, but it seems to me that there are some tell-tail behavior traits of a refuser.
NB: All of the following assume you have a non-abusive, normal, red-blooded spouse. Any one of these do not make a person an abuser, but I would think the more of these that describe a person's attitude, the more likely that person is a refuser.
- you have an attitude that you are doing your spouse a favor when you engage in sexual activity (SE)(defined here as ML, OS, teasing, taunting, dressing for your mate, dressing to your mate, banter, chatter, etc).
- you have a broad view on what is actually OK in the marriage bed and between married couples, but you willfully constrain your marriage bed and your mate to a narrow range, for no reason other than its not your cup of tea
- you have a narrow view of what is OK in the marriage bed despite overwhelming contradictory evidence otherwise
- you have set a very high bar for "conditions to be right" before you can be ready
- you set preconditions before you agree to sex (come'on Herbie... No num nums unless the grass gets mowed)
- You seek no growth in your sexual relationship
- You invent convenient excuses and reasons and situations that "put you out of the mood"
- Television is more important, even if you have Tivo
- You tiptoe around avoiding your spouse because it has been a week and you know he/she is going to ask
- You intentionally uglify yourself
- You use your children as a shield
- You are busy outside the house so you can avoid sexually tense situations
- You continuously think "I bet So-and-So doesn't pester His/Her spouse!"
- You feel guilty/angry/uncomfortable when you see openly affectionate, sexual couples in real life
- You disassociate sex and sexual play from all other activities, such as birthdays, barter, movie watching, witty banter, etc.
- You get angry if your spouse tries or introduces something new
- You pick fights right before a probable liaison
- You procrastinate until it is too late for the liaison, then make empty promises
- You purposely kill the mood with "bummer talk"
- You can be mistaken for a mannequin
- You can accurately count the number of times you have said no during the past month or year
- You get routinely get angry or panic if your spouse suggests something new
- You make sexual promises with no intention of keeping them
- You lead your spouse on, or mislead them intentionally
- You are relieved if you hit the sheets and there has been no sexual tension during the day
- things that hurt your feelings 20 years ago affect your attitude today
- You play "you didn't do this so I won't do that"
- There is absolutely nothing in your wardrobe your spouse would consider attractive
- You never ask "what do you want/need tonight?"
- You avoid, rather than seek to learn what your spouse likes and desires
- You make your spouse feel guilty for his or her sex drive and/or needs
There may be others, but its snooze time.
Just my .02
Another Shipguy gem...here... http://www.boards.themarriagebed.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=37437&hilit=pilot
Shipguy wrote:Sometimes in moments like these, I imagine DW standing before the Seat and it goes something like this:
"Child, I gave you one of my best. I gave him to you as a gift, for you to love, but you never loved him the way I do and the way I made him. You instead tried to bend his love to suit your tastes and bend him to suit your will.
I gave him to you to thrill, but instead you constrained him and kept him in a box.
I gave him to you to magnify, but instead you stifled him at every opportunity.
I gave him to you so you could help him be one of my mighty men, but instead you placed yourself on his throne, and contended for his house.
I gave him to you to warm you and please you on the coldest nights, but instead you were the source of the cold.
I gave him to you to fight at his side, but instead you warred against him such that he had to watch his back.
You have no reasons that I accept. No bye from my expectations. You were not excused on your account.
Now child, I will show you what could have been, what should have been, what was to be, what you two were to be. I will show you the glory that I intended, that did not come to be. I and then I will show you his anguish."
And I feel so sad... so sad... but not for me.
Shipguy wrote:Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:00 pm
I just wish they could understand the depths of a man's anguish. I wish they could understand just how deep a man can love a woman. I wonder if they know the last thing on a dying man's mind is the image of his wife. I know this. My father was burned over 80% of his body in 1963. They thought he was dead when they hosed him down. Then they heard him whispering my mother's name.
I wonder if they know the unwritten rules of the battlefield. When the battle is over and you find a dying countryman, you sit with him and give him a cigarette. Then you ask him "tell me about your girl", and he will smile and beam and forget he is dead. When you find a dying enemy, you don't kill him. You fish around in his pocket and find a picture of his girl and you put it where he can see it. You let him know he's a lucky dog. If he can't hold it, you hold his hand and hold it for him until he dies. No-one shoots an enemy holding a woman's picture for the dying. No one raises a gun when he walks away.
I wonder if they know why pilots put pictures of their girl in the center of the instrument panel. I wonder if they know that the pilot of a doomed plane does not watch the ground rush up to meet him. I wonder if they know those last few seconds are spent gazing at the picture. I wonder if they realize that they put it in the center of the panel so that if the plane is spinning in the G-force holds the pilot's gaze on the picture instead of tearing it away.
I wonder if they understand that a man can live with debt, with failure, with injury, with disfigurement, with his past sins, but a man cannot live alone in his marriage.
Yes, romance is a mating dance that should lead to sex every time. I strut my feathers around the lovely hen, and I preen her face, and bob and coo, and make sweet sounds. (Read dinner at the Olive Garden, music, dancing, wine, flowers...) Then she "presents" to me and we end in intercourse... mating. Romance then sex, every single time...
My DW does not require romance. But she appreciates it. Romance is not so much a necessity before sex, but a way of saying "I am committed to you at all times and I am renewing my covenant with you for our years of devotion to each other." However, when I show the devotion to initiate this "romance" it is ALWAYS, 100% of the time followed by an extreme receptivity towards or initiation of hot sex by my dear Sarah. So our "courtship dance" is.
Me: "Coooo. Cooooo" ,<Dance, preen> "Yes waiter. The lady will have the stuffed portobello mushrooms and tortellini, a glass of your best, <the rooster struts in a circle and billows out the air sacs in his cheeks> and ... my love... would you prefer the asparagus soup to start or the sampler appetizer platter? What's that? You want whatever I choose? "COOOOOOOOO! COOOOOOOOO! BooooooWeeeeEEEP!" Of course my love. <stomps his feathered feet in the dirt, picks up a dainty twig with tiny leaves and lays it at his hen's feet>. And waiter? Could you please turn down the air conditioner that is blowing on my wife from the ceiling, and be sure to bring us <deep bellowing sound emanates from the rooster's cheeks> a nice plate of the toast with olive oil before dinner? <rooster pecks gently at the cheek of the hen.> "Coooooooo, prrrrrrrrrrrbbbbbbbdd!"
Her: "tooWIP! tooWIP!" <hen turns away in feigned shyness> "Ooh that sounds lovely! How about the "tooWIP" <bob, bob, turn away then back again> triple chocolate cake for dessert? Could we? <drops her head down in submissive display>
Me: "Coooo." "Whatever you wish my dear, I'm just glad to be able to spend time alone together and reunite after a few hectic weeks."
<hormones are raging high now! On both sides!>
Driving home... sitting close ... leaning into each other in the front bench of the truck "coooo .... tooooWEEEP!" <rooster puts wing over back of hen>
Get to bedroom that night... I'm already hard... she's already wet ... almost no foreplay is needed. The night has been 4 hours of non-stop foreplay without touching.
She: <hen presents her backside to the rooster> "Honey, thank you for spending the evening with me and taking me to my favorite restaurant. Now come to bed with me!"
Me: <rooster grasps hen with beak by back of her neck and gently mounts>
I enjoyed this evening with you Precious.
And so it goes... this is the dance... every dance... EVERY such dance displays the devotion to one another. EVERY such mating dance ends in copulation, every single time. As it should. It is nature's way. IMO it is God's way.